Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Dimaz]

I think if you make water bracelet Water 2, you should also change helm which gives +1 Fire to Fire 2. Or leave both intact. Symmetry is good, but I don't think that Water 1 bracelet crashes the balance...

[PDF]

The Blood Thorn didn't get nerfed ?
Strange, it's the most overabused item ... :?

[Alneyan]

PDF => The Blood Thorn has kept the same cost, but the stats of the weapon itself were slightly nerfed. It became a 0 damage no strength added weapon... in other words, it isn't a weapon any longer.

Dimaz => I am not sure if my explanation is the reason why Zen made the change. I am not arguing for or against the change though, but merely explaining a possible rationale for it. The Fire Helmet is a bit different however, as it requires Fire 1 and Death 1, and not Fire 1 alone, so it is harder to raise Fire than Water.

CUnknown => Another problem with the current lifedraining weapons is that they will have a very tough time doing any real damage, as protections around 30 can be obtained without too much difficulty. To overcome a protection of 30, you will need a creature with a strength of 40 (before the 2d6oe dice kick in), and those aren't exactly the most common thing in the game.

I know I would much rather go the Gatebreaker way, a mighty weapon dealing 29 armour-negating damage and adding strength. That thing can kill in a single blow, and its cost is more or less on par with the new lifestealing weapons, and it helps a lot in sieges. The Soul Vortex body armour is likely a much better choice too, but only of use when facing a horde of units (where other choices are available).

[PDF]

Alneyan,
Ok about the Thorn, making it just a Blood boost is good.

Instead of GateCleaver, go for DuskDagger

[Chazar]

EDIT:This post has become obsolete. It was based on a misunderstanding of mine

Alneyan said:
The Blood Thorn [...] became a 0 damage no strength added weapon... in other words, it isn't a weapon any longer.

What is the reasoning behind 0 damage? I think it is quite clever to prevent strength from being added to the damage of a lifedrain weapon, but where is the problem with some base damage for the blood thorn? How could, e.g. a 1-damage no strength life draining weapon be abused? I can hardly imagine that a quickened Nataraja with 4 of those modified blood thorns would be any remote choice. So having some minor damage score might yield more choice for players...

Or is the drained fatigue independent from the damage score?

(How about turning the blood thorn into throwing knife (ammo:1, range str, damage 10,...) to explain the lack of strength? Is that possible mod-wise?)

[Alneyan]

Go ask Zen Chazar, I cannot speak for him. At most, I can provide with possible explanations, but my word should *not* be considered as being "official". In this case, I do not really have an idea about the damage of the Blood Thorn.

[Chazar]

Alneyan said:
Go ask Zen Chazar...

The question in my post was not specifically addressed to you, Alneyan, but rather to anybody who might offer an explanation why a 1-damage blood thorn would be a bad idea, despite quoting you...

Nerfing life-drain weapons is good and I understand that the blood thorn still yields a blood bonus, but where is the reason to disallow its use as a crappy weapon entirely?

Oops, i now see that i misunderstood the issue entirely: The current blood thorn still does 0+2d6(oe) draining damage, right? I thought that "0-damage/no strength" really meant 0 damage always, but this is wrong, right? So I reast my case, sorry for bothering!
(Nevertheless I would like the throwing-knife blood thorn...)

[Alneyan]

It wasn't clear indeed; I wouldn't want to usurp Zen's position.

Very good point about the damage; I had completely forgotten about the dice part myself. You will still need a lot of luck to actually do some damage however, as protection will get that 2d6oe as well, and virtually everyone has a protection value higher than 0. Still, it should be possible to deal *some* damage, with a bit of luck.

[Oversway]

I think the wraith sword and hellsword changes are interesting. They still are usable against mid to lightly armored troops (perhaps -10 is too much, maybe -5?), but they are no longer good weapons to fight other thugs/scs/etc. with. Well, unless you can cast astral weapon

So instead of life draining weapons being the best choice for the majority of situations, they have more of a niche. Some of the comments from others (rather use gate cleaver, etc.) seems to back this up.

Of course, this is just my guess. I'd like to hear from Zen what his aim was.

[Boron]

Chazar had a very good idea imho.

You could make the Hellsword a No-Strength Weapon but 20 Weapondamage.
So you can field it vs. troops but some elite troops (Black Knights e.g.) have a good enough protection to make life draining them difficult.
Vs. other SCs you can forget the lifedrainweapon then with only 20 + 2d6 oe damage.