Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

I'm just glad confusion was nerfed. that spell allowed about 10 cheap-*** air mages to slaughter an army of 400 dai bakemono.

it still looks a bit scary th0ough, but the A2 will at least mean that the cheapest mages can't use its overwhelming potential

I think it still needs #ofeffects reduced though. I had to quit an SP game because just entering the mid-game, I was attacked by Vanheim, and I was summarily slaughtering them as I expected to with my strong elite troops - but really even 4-5 Vanjarls spamming Confusion (the AI seems to know?!) could destroy my armies.

The problem isn't even losing battles, so much. But every battle that I won, I would suffer 20-30% attrition, almost entirely from my own men killing eachother. With my formations broken up, the mages would surive EVERY combat, to come back to haunt me again. Against humans it would be horrifying, as they would come with large numbers of cheap-ish mages, supported by strong troops. The AI just used it to win due to its relentless spam attacks of small forces. Thing is it was forces I should lose at most 1-2 men against (I had decent mage support, but no Antimagic), and yet I was losing 20+ in many combats.

Sorry for being so long winded. I just think Confusion would still be "useful" and attractive at #ofeffects 2+ rather than 4+.

[Dedas]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.

Yes, I wish it was that simple. The thing is that CBM changes the whole weapon type 'pike'. That means other units in other nations as well (not many but a few). And if you change one thing you usually have to change another to keep balance. My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

To avoid any of your troops being repelled all you need to do is cast sermon of courage on them anyway imo. An extra 2 morale makes a big difference.

I think the issue is more that the other Ulmish infantry suck at fighting (though they make passable chaff) than pikes being too good. I think pikes should be something special anyway, they certainly are historically and it isn't like pikes and long spears are common weapons in dom3. They also exist in the age of crossbows largely, where they get blasted really easily, like all 2 handers.

Regardless pikes aren't broken or anything, but maybe they are better than the other MA Ulm infantry choices. Those could do with a boost anyway imo.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

I don't think the original pikes are worth buying at all. They aren't just competing with MA Ulm two handed weapon guys and hammer users (the hammer is a truly awful weapon), they're competing with other infantry and have high resource cost, no shield, mapmove 1 and so on.

Could you do a quick test for me? (I can't run dom3 right now) Set a pike unit to morale 30, att 30, def 1. Set an enemy unit to morale 2, att 30, prot and hp as high as possible. I just want to confirm 100% that the repel morale check comes before the prot check. I believe it does, but it would be nice to be certain. By using those settings you would expect the attacking unit to be repelled every time. If he isn't repelled then it's down to his prot.

[Dedas]

Yes, I'm all with you on that Sombre. My point main point is that the pikeneer can't be repelled by any unit when he attacks them. That gives him a much greater advantage than is commonly perceived. I have played and tested a lot and with the increased damage of the pike it is no point of buying a guy that does three more damage but have to do a repel test when he attacks someone with a longer weapon than him(spear is 4 and is very common). Just for fun look at the hammer guy, he gets to do a repel check against almost every other weapon in the game making him truly bad on the attack (and defense as he blows at repelling back as well).

[Sombre]

Yeah the hammer troops aren't for doing damage though (which is good since they can't).

[Dedas]

Exactly!

And if you want to do some damage and still have a shield the morningstar troops are standing ready. You lose 1 damage and 1 defence but gain 1 attack (+2 extra against shields) and 1 length. And although the encumbrance is horrible on both of them they can soak a lot of mundane missile fire away from your damage dealers. The pikeneers are better at keeping the enemy away for a sustained time in close combat, while battle axes or mauls can flank and the fatigued (thus low defence) enemy.
Flails on the other hand are great when attacking high defence low protection troops; with the attack bonus and double attacks they have a good chance of hitting. Length isn't bad either at 3, and according to the manual it gets -2 harder to repel after each additional attack. They also get +2 against shields. Perfect for those high defence, low prot, shield wielding Vans. If they have broad swords you can even repel against them.
Everyone has their niche. That is why I think it is a shame that I now only use pikeneers - they have gotten too good. Damage the same as morningstars, better attack bonus, longer weapon, cheaper and so on. Not fun.

[Reay]

I just played against LA Ulm in MP and I have to say Dedas is right in saying Pikeneers are a good unit. They now seem overpowered somewhat for their cost compared to the other infantry units of Ulm.

By the way the help text of CBM says that Sanguine Heritage now costs 33 slaves but still appears to be 44 slaves in game.

[Redeyes]

Yeah, those Pikeneers almost took your Jaguar warriors on a one on one basis.

In the labbing I did, their only weakness lay in their low Morale.
Interspersed with ghoul guardians, that issue is mitigated.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Reay

I just played against LA Ulm in MP and I have to say Dedas is right in saying Pikeneers are a good unit. They now seem overpowered somewhat for their cost compared to the other infantry units of Ulm.

By the way the help text of CBM says that Sanguine Heritage now costs 33 slaves but still appears to be 44 slaves in game.

You are correct it still is 44.