Standard special ability, totally pointless?

[Endoperez]

Cainehill said:
And - heroes should be _heroic_.

Thank the Great Pumpkin that Turin seems to be working on a Heroic Commanders again.

Whether heroes should be better than other commanders of the nation or not is a matter of taste. I don't think it's that important. There are some things I'd like to add to national heroes, but they are additional mechanics, not changes to their stats.

I like the Heroic Commanders mod. I just wouldn't like seeing few humans achieve something that's disturbingly superhuman in a game where all humans ARE just humans. Double hp compared to a normal humans is A LOT already. It probably isn't enough, but that's a different beast altogether. Same with att/def in the 13 to 15 range. It's already very good for mere humans, but the existence of immensely superior beings play it down quite a lot. Bane Lords have att 14, def 13. The Ulmish heroes are THAT GOOD already. Hildegard actually has better stats then the angelic Seraph, and is equal to uniques like Water Queens in skill!

[thejeff]

The Seraph has <14hp? Do people use it as a thug/SC or as mage?

The skills of the heroes are generally fine. It's the lack of hp that makes them poor thugs.

I have the same problem with superhuman humans, but heroic abilities already allow that. Why can't heroes come with the equivalent?

What about an item that adds 10-20hp? Wouldn't unbalance existing SCs much, but would make human thugs much more survivable.

[Cainehill]

Perhaps I've read different mythology, folktales, and heroic fantasy than you - Vainamoinen (spelling), Cu Culain, Robin Hood / William Tell, Lancelot, Roland, even Falstaff, or even Rasputin. Not to mention Elric, Conan, and all the heroes from Zelazny, George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, etc, etc.

Considered what a _human_ mage can accomplish in the game, superhuman abilities in the heroes don't seem that outlandish. Especially when you consider the heroic abilities even "normal" recruitable human commanders can get, and Ulm's heroes don't seem that unreasonable. They're _unique_ where Bane Lords are spawned from a limitless stock of undead

[FrankTrollman]

Yeah. We know how Knight vs. Dragon is supposed to end, especially when that knight happens to be a common born lad destined for greatness who was chosen by a black unicorn and found his knightly arms in the crack of a tree.

-Frank

[PhilD]

Cainehill said:
Not to mention Elric, Conan, and all the heroes from Zelazny, George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, etc, etc.

Hehe - I agree with most of these, except George R R Martin. His heroes can mostly die a quick and painful death before they become heroes... (which is something I absolutely love about the Song of Ice and Fire series - must be a sadist)

[Endoperez]

thejeff said:
The Seraph has <14hp? Do people use it as a thug/SC or as mage?

There are Seraphs, and then there are Seraphs. I'm talking of the latter. Screenie!

(Scroll down to the very end.)

The skills of the heroes are generally fine. It's the lack of hp that makes them poor thugs.

I have the same problem with superhuman humans, but heroic abilities already allow that. Why can't heroes come with the equivalent?

What about an item that adds 10-20hp? Wouldn't unbalance existing SCs much, but would make human thugs much more survivable.

Hmm. That item would make lot of the lower-tier thugs more interesting... it'd probably come with a drawback, though. Like being a Heart. And those drawbacks usually hurt a human more than they'd hurt someone undead, like a Bane Lord. Humans are worse than other possible chassises for various items, so there can't be any items that ONLY affect humans, or that'd be good for humans and wouldn't be too good for others.

Cainehill said:

Perhaps I've read different mythology, folktales, and heroic fantasy than you - Vainamoinen (spelling), Cu Culain, Robin Hood / William Tell, Lancelot, Roland, even Falstaff, or even Rasputin. Not to mention Elric, Conan, and all the heroes from Zelazny, George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, etc, etc.

Considered what a _human_ mage can accomplish in the game, superhuman abilities in the heroes don't seem that outlandish. Especially when you consider the heroic abilities even "normal" recruitable human commanders can get, and Ulm's heroes don't seem that unreasonable. They're _unique_ where Bane Lords are spawned from a limitless stock of undead

Väinämoinen did what, exactly? He cast Petrify at Joukahainen. He cast equivalent of Cloud Trapeze on Ilmarinen. He crafted some items. Hmm. A giant (Vipunen) ate him and he made a fire into his belly, thus gaining control over him and trading the Giant's life for his knowledge. Phoenix Pyre?

If various melee heroes came with enough magic to buff themselves, they'd be rather nice thugs. Air for few illusions -> Vanir, etc. Vanir have just few hp, but were used as thugs at least in DomII. Air, Earth and Astral spells, at least, have buffs that would make the melee types much more survivable in melee/against magic.

[thejeff]

Except that an extra 15hp is a lot more useful to someone with 10 than to someone who already has 30.

The Seraph looks about as I'd thought. How does Hildegard have better stats? Def is 15 instead of 14, everything else is worse, often much worse?

[Cainehill]

PhilD said:

Hehe - I agree with most of these, except George R R Martin. His heroes can mostly die a quick and painful death before they become heroes... (which is something I absolutely love about the Song of Ice and Fire series - must be a sadist)

Yep. I also love the way his characters (with a _very_ few exceptions like Joffrey & the Mummers) aren't black or white - some of my favorites are nice complex shadings of gray, such as the Hound and Tyrion.

[Endoperez]

thejeff said:
Except that an extra 15hp is a lot more useful to someone with 10 than to someone who already has 30.

The Seraph looks about as I'd thought. How does Hildegard have better stats? Def is 15 instead of 14, everything else is worse, often much worse?

+15 hp is still very good at 30 hp.

Sorry, I meant to use "skills" instead of "stats" when referencing Hildegard...

Any way, her base attack and defence, her skills at attacking and defending, are both 15. The Seraph's "skills" are only at 14 and 14. I didn't count Fire in, because it's magic, and distinct from martial skills even though it does help in there, too.



And finally...
A Knight against a Dragon

I ran some numbers. It was pretty even... but I had made a few mistakes (applying shield prot to hits that went over def+parry) to the Knight's favour, so I presume he's pulp on turn 3. A single Knight can't defeat a Dragon one-on-one in Dominions unless he has Luck, is decked in powerful magical items and has protection 30 before shield, defence 23 before shield and gets lucky while the Dragon doesn't. A hero (Raterik or Hildegard) with more 2-3 experience stars than the dragon they're fighting against would have a chance, provided the dragon wastes a turn or two on breath attacks/spells that won't work against it, or in killing the childhood friends of the hero (Mr Militia and Mrs Light Infantry) or something. If the Dragon could somehow get a Curse Luck effect (more likely to get hit and to be damaged), a very lucky lone knight might actually succeed. He's still pulp after single straight hit, or after anything after the first (parried) hit.

[PhilD]

Cainehill said:
Yep. I also love the way his characters (with a _very_ few exceptions like Joffrey & the Mummers) aren't black or white - some of my favorites are nice complex shadings of gray, such as the Hound and Tyrion.

Don't forget Eddard. He's a bit too good - but his role is mostly as a warning to the reader: "OK, nobody's safe in this story - watch this!"

But, having all characters somehow interesting is obviously part of the plan - you're supposed to like most of them somehow, and then they die.