On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat

[Huzurdaddi]

If you are giving the Vampire queen earth magic there is no need for armor, just research alteration 2/3 and cast stoneskin/ironskin before attacking for 15 or 20 protection. With earth2 you can cast earth might too which is nice to do some more damage and thereby more hp back from the lifedrain.

Indeed I so cast stoneskin/ironskin. Great little spell. And earth might adds to her strength which is nice.

However I find that I can forge the armor with alchemy about the same time that I get quickness/stoneskin. And then I am ready to go, and you protection is near 30. That makes it quite difficult for indeps to do any damage at all.

The low hitpoints would normally be very risky since she can die quick even with lifedrain and regen, but with immortality and flying she can just try attacking again the next turn.

I find this of limited use early on since the spell power is just not there. Maybe once you get way up the tech chart it becomes possible but that is a long time to wait!

I can have Alt 3, Enc 1 (maybe 2)... and 2 Ice swords...

That is a lot of research for turn 5 I think it may be possible for turn 6 (which means attack on turn 7). I have not played R'lyeh but that seems like a lot of research (considering that you lose 2 mage-turns forging).

Thus: (Ouickness)(Body Ethereal)(Personal Luck) (Breath of Winter)

A fine list of spells (especially Breath of Winter). Hard to pull off in the ocean though. Once you reach land you may indeed be an SC though. You do accumulate afflictions though. The VQ does not.

regeneration will be there next turn...

So you will be taking nature as well? What are your scales and what are your paths? Having astral is a big hole in a SC due to magic duel. If you astral is not above 6 people can send cheap casters at you (I hope that the die is not open ended in magic duel ... but I don't know, if it is you are never safe, that's horrible!).

VQ's are great, but I don't think they're as uber as they're made out to be.

I don't know about them being uber since that is ill defined. I do think that they are the best early game super combatant. And it's shocking to me. Like I said due to her low HP I dismissed her at 1st.

astral shield soon after

That is one sick spell I have to say. Almost makes me want to take astral on an SC. Almost!

add a Horror Helmet and

Don't you already have like horror +15 or something silly like that?! How much do you need

Don't forget about the Earth Mother. Some of the Titan-style pretenders are reasonably effective in the early game as well, depending on forging and research.

Yes I like anything with trample! I have not tried her in a while though I found her of less effectiveness than I had expected. I should try her again to see if with what I now know (or think that I know!) if she performs better. The lack of flying will hurt though.

But I imagine somebody who's familiar with a Nataraja SC, could get them fully equiped in a similar amount of time...

20 water. That's a good amount. Going to be hard to get that *really* early for most nations (hello atlantis).

The Bulls are nearly unstopable beasts with only Enchantment 2 researched.

Enchantment or alteration? I guess the regen would really help him. I usually find that Alteration is the SC line of choice. But given his magic (and the silly cost of other lines for him) I guess it makes sense.

To me, effectively battling Indie Str 6+, is not much of a challenge... tons of pretenders with a little research or a few items can tear through indies.

I disagree. Against high strength independents I find that all pretenders need some help, it's just a matter of how much help, and that translates into how many turns. And I find that the VQ wins that race. And in some cases by a wide margin.

So when I look at a SC, I look at how effective they'll be against other SCs. Which is where the VQ seems really lacking to me... 23 HP, 0 base protection ...

Certianly. And this is not her strong suit (she's not bad against most, but against some she may have problems). But this thread is about the early use of pretenders in combat. And it opened my eyes to the VQ (thanks all!).

[fahdiz]

Huzurdaddi - you mentioned a reluctance to taking Astral on an SC, probably due to Mind Duel...but I think you might reconsider and stick Astral 5 on a Wyrm. Talk about an SC! Research up to Astral Shield and let him rip through the indies. It's really amazing...

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Huzurdaddi - you mentioned a reluctance to taking Astral on an SC, probably due to Mind Duel...but I think you might reconsider and stick Astral 5 on a Wyrm. Talk about an SC! Research up to Astral Shield and let him rip through the indies. It's really amazing...

Fine in SP, less fine in MP where one of the astal nations will have a lineup of 6-10+ cheap L1 astral units all with orders to mind duel.

Apart from the threat of battles, I have not tried it, but I assume i sucks big time to be mind-dueled to death in an assassination attempt by a R'lyeh Star Child.

[AhhhFresh]

That is a lot of research for turn 5 I think it may be possible for turn 6 (which means attack on turn 7). I have not played R'lyeh but that seems like a lot of research (considering that you lose 2 mage-turns forging).

Yes, you're right... it's attack on turn 7. And all I'm doing is recruiting mages, researching, and patrolling with the starting army to combat raised taxes.

It might be possible to do it a turn faster by alchemizing your astral income to fire gems... but it's probably not worth it, since you're gonna need those when you get to Construction 2.

A fine list of spells (especially Breath of Winter). Hard to pull off in the ocean though. Once you reach land you may indeed be an SC though. You do accumulate afflictions though. The VQ does not.

With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

So you will be taking nature as well? What are your scales and what are your paths? Having astral is a big hole in a SC due to magic duel. If you astral is not above 6 people can send cheap casters at you (I hope that the die is not open ended in magic duel ... but I don't know, if it is you are never safe, that's horrible!).

3 Water, 7 Astral, 3 Nature
With scales of: 3 Order, -3 Sloth, 3 Magic
Dominion:4
0 Point Kelp Fortress

The dominion is quite low for an SC, which is why I like the 88 base hp... so I can fight outside it... and just build temples and cheap indie priests... and I make an assasin or scout my prophet, to extend dominion ahead of my Void Lord.

The castle is not much of a weakness, as resources are largely irrelevant to R'lyeh... and you actually end up with a mausoleum if you beuild a fortress above the waves, so it's like a free 40 points.

Don't you already have like horror +15 or something silly like that?! How much do you need

Alas, it's only +5... so +10 makes it the equivalent of a Wyrm wearing 2 horror helmets. Which makes me happy.

Against high strength independents I find that all pretenders need some help, it's just a matter of how much help, and that translates into how many turns. And I find that the VQ wins that race. And in some cases by a wide margin.

There is no doubt that the VQ is the fastest out of the gate... most definately with Ulm. And her immortality allows you to be a bit reckless with her initially... which is fantastic for someone just learning how to use an SC...

Though, if they don't slap some armor or her or learn to cast stoneskin, they are going to be disappointed.

EDIT: Magic for Void Lord pretender was off.

[ March 30, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Tell that to one of my friends' super Molochs with exceptional equipment who lost an arm to my crossbowmen - in melee. He swooped directly into the formation and let them suicide in melee attacks against his 16 AP fire shield, but some of them got lucky enough to hit him for a few points of damage and one of them cut off an arm.

It may be unlikely, but it does happen if you get attacked by enough troops, even if you are ethereal, lucky, and have exceptionally high defense and protection.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Tell that to one of my friends' super Molochs with exceptional equipment who lost an arm to my crossbowmen - in melee. He swooped directly into the formation and let them suicide in melee attacks against his 16 AP fire shield, but some of them got lucky enough to hit him for a few points of damage and one of them cut off an arm.

It may be unlikely, but it does happen if you get attacked by enough troops, even if you are ethereal, lucky, and have exceptionally high defense and protection.

---

You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

I'm sure it can happen... but I like my odds with 3 attacks per round, plus quickness, plus breath of winter, plus astral shield, plus fear +10... I'm pretty confident that the attackers that aren't dead, frozen, paralyzed, or running away: can't hit or hurt him. I guess I'm "reckless".

And anyway, that's partially what the nature is for... either Gift of Health or a Fairy Queen mid game.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects.

[atul]

Originally posted by fahdiz:

quote:

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How about using Pretenders as magical artillery? Is this more or less common than using them as SC, and is it more or less effective, or about the same?

I am sure there are people who do this - I tend to usually either build for supercombatants or site-searchers/forgers. But a site-searcher could certainly be used as artillery, given the right paths and the right research. The trouble with this is that you won't really get much out of them in the early game, because your research won't be high enough for some of the really effective artillery spells.

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If you've got the path high enough for it - Fire Darts. Evocation 1, armour piercing, amount of darts goes up with path level, though path-independent low damage forces you to research up to Flare before going up against heavy cavalry. Plus, you can get the scorching started from turn 2.

Of course you need some screen of troops and this isn't answer for all -strategy, but if you're looking for an artillery support from the start, the darts are an option. With fire9 as an added bonus: flaming weapons bless effect.

I'm quite uneasy trying to thug my way with expensive units (dying, wounding, etc) and found that one approach a bit more forgiving than a melee pretender when I had to quickly come up with something for a MP game few months back.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects.

---

Well, like I said, I believe that it can happen... but I have yet to see it happen vs. indies... in dozens off tests against random str 9 provinces. That's good enough for me.

And the Void Lord can't go blind, so he's at least immune to that particular ticket to the SC retirement home.

[Huzurdaddi]

Huzurdaddi - you mentioned a reluctance to taking Astral on an SC, probably due to Mind Duel...but I think you might reconsider and stick Astral 5 on a Wyrm. Talk about an SC! Research up to Astral Shield and let him rip through the indies. It's really amazing...

Actually my 1st SC was a wyrm with astral. I was shocked to see how well he did in combat. I actually thought that something was wrong with the game

However after reading how Zen is so afraid of astral on SC's I decided I should try something else.

And all I'm doing is recruiting mages, researching, and patrolling with the starting army to combat raised taxes.

Hmmm ... increasing taxes and patrolling on the 1st few turns. That may in fact be a good idea! I've never done it since I thought that the population loss from higher taxes would make it not worth it ... I'll have to try it out! Good tip!

With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Well My VQ gets them all of the time (weirdly) and she has protection in the 30's, is etherial, and regenerates. However her defence is no where near 20. Oh and silly me I don't give her a coin of luck most of the time (cuz I'm a tard).

3 Water, 7 Astral, 3 Nature

Nice astral! If Mind Duel is not open eneded (and I think it's not ... I hope it's not) then you are safe from those cheap level 1 dudes. Good decision!

with a mausoleum if you beuild a fortress above the waves

Is that right? Wow, that's a pain for those aquatic races. I suppose that means that you have to forge sacks of wine quite commonly!

There is no doubt that the VQ is the fastest out of the gate... most definately with Ulm.

Yes ULM would be turn 3. That would be nice. Pythium (my current fav!) is turn 5. No idea on the other races, I figure they will take a touch longer.

You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

I think it reduces it by 90%, actually so yes indeeeddy!

No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects.

Sucks to be him then!! But that follows from my experience with my VQ (note: I do not have astral shield).

If you've got the path high enough for it - Fire Darts.

B
leech whenever I use these all I see is them raining everywhere but on the enemy

With fire9 as an added bonus: flaming weapons bless effect.

Now you are talking this is a great bless effect!

And the Void Lord can't go blind, so he's at least immune to that particular ticket to the SC retirement home.

Really? it says that he starts of "blind" but I thought that was just window dressing and for flavour.

Anyway to summarize what we have so far:

The VQ is an excellent combat pretender by turn 3 (if ulm) or turn 5 for many other races. She can fly which gives strategic options. However she is not the most uber of all pretenders in 1v1 combat.

The Void Lord is an excellent combat pretender who takes about 7 turns to take off (if you research hard). He also requires pretty harsh scales to be truely excellent (due to cost of magic paths) however he will obliterate any independent, and will do well in 1v1 combat later in the game.

Anymore good SC's to add? With accompaning magic paths, items, and turn by which he/she becomes Ub3r.

[ March 31, 2004, 01:52: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]