D2 vs Aow:SM - Page 4

NTJedi · #31 November 26th, 2003, 02:20 AM

Dominions_II is like Civilization_III with fantasy elements but much more evolved. Dominions_II provides more control and direct influence for upcoming battles then Civilization. I really enjoy being able to place the location of my units before going into battle for Dominions_II. The computer then plays out the entire battle between you and your enemies since hundreds of units are involved. Dominions_II has two great weaknesses...
first: there is no diplomacy with computer opponents. Even if settings could be placed just between the computer opponents it would be nice for providing a greater challenge.
second: the artificial intelligence of computer opponents makes it easy to predict some army movement actions. I also have yet to see the AI opponents to try and assassinate one of my commanders. The largest topic on this forum is about improving the AI... but that's the way it is with most strategy games.

Bossemanden · #32 November 26th, 2003, 02:31 AM

I have seen assasinations of my leaders. Both succesfull and otherwise.
I am only playing SP in the demo, so that is the AI attempting to kill off my leaders.
Once my butcher of a Moloch pretender with 80 kills was targeted by the nightmare spell (forgot exact name), that sends as many undead after the target as the target has killed. He was much too strong for them. The only problem was that he was cursed and had two afflictions already (Weakened and lost arm). Slowly they pulled him down, but he killed something like 70 of them first (and got MANY afflictions). This was not an assasination, but still a devious way of pulling down a warlike pretender.

Nerfix · #33 November 26th, 2003, 02:49 AM

They are so diffrent kind of games...

But i stopped playing AoW 2 when i found Dominions I, so

...

ceremony · #34 November 26th, 2003, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HJ:

quote:
Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

quote:
Originally posted by Altus:
SM is a great 'beer and pretzel' fantasy wargame. I've had a lot of fun with it.

A lot of people talk about beer and pretzel strategy games. What does that mean? What's the origin? Is it more fun playing Dominions II while consuming beer and pretzels? I don't think I've ever ingested them together.

-Cherry
AFAIK, the term describes a game that you can play casually, without much mental effort, and finish in a short time span. I've seen it mentioned a lot on the Underdogs site.

It's a boardgaming term. It was used to differentiate between hardcore wargames that required your full attention during your turn, where you had to manipulate many stacks of counters, or constantly consult the rules, or both. A beer-and-pretzels game was one in which you and your opponent could shoot the breeze while playing and drinking beer and eating pretzels. Of course, you can always drink beer and eat preztels, but it referred also to the general atmosphere, less mental effort, etc. as HJ said. Shorter games with simpler rules were more social. As an example, War in the Pacific was a hardcore wargame, while its "beer & pretzels" counterpart was Victory in the Pacific (which, ironically, was the much better game).

The term doesn't make much sense as applied to computer games, except maybe in the general sense of "less complex rules." Still, computer games require a different kind of attention than boardgames. I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

Elmo · #35 November 26th, 2003, 04:05 AM

Lost my Last game of SM after misplacing an army by one hex. Ended up attacking with only half my force and lost both halves eventually. One thing I did not like about the game was the difficulty in seeing exactly which hex your units occupied. Even with the grid turned on it was tough sometimes.

I agree that SM is not beer and pretzels, at least not in MP mode.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm playing the demo with help from the walkthrough and so far it's a lot of fun, and a very different experience from SM.

[ November 26, 2003, 12:29: Message edited by: Elmo ]

Elmo · #36 November 26th, 2003, 05:40 PM

After all the positive feedback and a run through the demo I ordered D2. Now all I have to do is convince my wife it's not going under the Christmas tree!

PS - Now when is that patch coming out?

[ November 26, 2003, 15:42: Message edited by: Elmo ]

MythicalMino · #37 November 26th, 2003, 05:53 PM

cool...welcome to the pack

Elmo · #38 November 26th, 2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cpbeller:
cool...welcome to the pack

Thanks. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do in this forum while waiting for the game to arrive!

Altus · #39 November 27th, 2003, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ceremony:
I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

If you read this thread from the beginning and my post, instead of quoting out of context, you would know both pertain to a comparison of SM and Dom2's AI, not multiplayer. I stand by my statement that SM is a 'beer & pretzel' fantasy wargame. I could beat the AI handily sloshed, let alone while imbibing a few beers.

The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles; at that time even PBEM was revolutionary and BBS games were a wonder.

It referred to PC games and the quality, or lack thereof, of the AI. Actually, to use the term to describe a multiplayer game, PC or board, would be an insult to the players involved. Human oppponents require more attention and respect. I have never seen anyone use 'beer & pretzel' to describe multiplayer gameplay before.

Chris Byler · #40 November 27th, 2003, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Altus:

quote:
Originally posted by ceremony:
I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

If you read this thread from the beginning and my post, instead of quoting out of context, you would know both pertain to a comparison of SM and Dom2's AI, not multiplayer. I stand by my statement that SM is a 'beer & pretzel' fantasy wargame. I could beat the AI handily sloshed, let alone while imbibing a few beers.

The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles; at that time even PBEM was revolutionary and BBS games were a wonder.

It referred to PC games and the quality, or lack thereof, of the AI. Actually, to use the term to describe a multiplayer game, PC or board, would be an insult to the players involved. Human oppponents require more attention and respect. I have never seen anyone use 'beer & pretzel' to describe multiplayer gameplay before.

LOL. "Beer and pretzels" predates any PC gaming (yes, even ADVENT). It was used to refer to "lightweight" board/tabletop games (those that are simpler and/or more chance based and therefore require less serious thought - note that it's not the opponents that make a game beer & pretzels, but the games themselves).

A lousy AI doesn't make a game beer and pretzels - it just makes it a game with a lousy AI.

I wouldn't consider AOWSM beer and pretzels, either. But it's a lot closer than Dom II.