OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[Starhawk]

Oh and this deserves a seperate post:

Democracy DOES NOT WORK for the long term even Republics have not Lasted and most of those throughout history have fallen do to dumbass citizens who pulled so much crap that they were eventually brought under an iron grip because they were seen as too stupid or anarchy ridden to rule themselves. not acusing anyone Here of this (cept Ed)
Either that or they have been conquered by a nation that is unified through force and pretty much shoots anti-war types and makes dissenters disapear.
The United States is the oldest surviving Republic and the most powerful nation in the world so I'm sorry but we must be doing something right....(not to mention that we get the HIGHEST friggin immigration rates of any country on earth) so for all you "US is evil" folks maybe you should think about your own government first......because I can say plenty of things that England has done crappy throughout their history, and Germany, and Russia, and France and EVERY DANG COUNTRY ON EARTH!.

Now I am saying that until hopefully someday something better then both the current "Democracies" (and that means ALL of THEM) and the current "Iron Grip" regimes comes along I WILL GO FOR the American "Democracy" any day....thank you.

[Starhawk]

"No....though for some of them I'll say sorry.....I'm tired so I'm a litle testy...sorry......cept for my remarks toward Ed those stand.

I am an advocate of peace don't get me wrong, but as the old saying goes for the country that choses they aren't going to learn war anymore they will be crushed under the boot of those who still learned war.

And again that song is biased they don't exactly give you both views so sorry I don't like biased views like that either.....especially SINCE WE ARE NOT proffiting from the damned war in Iraq....in fact it's COSTING US MONEY....oy.

Like I said USA is far from perfect but it is the better choice out of any other country around."

Oh and my oppinion of Kerry is that he is a flipflopping jackass who wants to win on his "I won three purple hearts!" line.....so BFD my Great Uncle DIED in Nam after staying for two tours and getting hit twice....Kerry got pissant wounds (not even enough to send him home for God's sake or keep him in hospital for more then a few days) and went home after 4 months after writing his own report to make himself a hero......yeah I don't want that guy in office I'm sorry.

Now I'm going back to making my mod and hopefully making people happy with it.....and other fun stuff here.
I like most of you guys so as I said to most of you sorry for getting testy it's just US bashers piss me off especially when hey never point out the flaws of their own countries first and instead focus on us.
Now anyway this is likely my Last post in this thread so cya'll in the more lightheared and fun threads.

[Gandalf Parker]

Post deleted by Gandalf Parker

[Gandalf Parker]

England was trying to "civilize" the world NOT liberate it, the countries they conquered they occupied and established as tax paying provinces (AND DON'T EVEN CLAIM THE US HAS PROVINCES OR I WILL BEAT YOU WITH A STICK ) and not simply trade partners.

By the way... as far as US territorys...
American Samoa
Federated States of Micronesia
Guam
Marshall Islands
Northern Mariana Islands
Puerto Rico
Palau
Virgin Islands
and until recently the Phillipines

just to name a few. Yes they are territorys. Their citizens can serve US military and they pay US taxes. They have no state rights and cannot vote in elections. This is not propaganda. The US fully acknowledges them as US provinces and always has even though most americans arent much aware of them.

Germany! fah they were trying to "liberate" their "Aryan brothers" not impoverished countries run by dictators who were responsible for OVER A MILLION DEATHS in the course of their reign many tens of thousands of which being at the hands of said dictators secret police force (and their sons who just decided to rape women for the hell of it).

Do you not see that as kindof an opinion? Im not saying that you arent correct but surely you see where the same COULD be said about the US by others. Doesnt mean its true but secret police, atrocities, and freeing someone from one form of government to another should surely sound familiar.

Why the HECK does a country like the US trying to free these people get treated like it's doing something wrong, maybe those big bad European powers should show more concern for the world outside their borders as well and start HELPING rid the world of dictators for a change. WHY THE HECK does getting rid of a freakin dictator now a days become a BAD THING. think about a world with no dictators? Wouldn't that be great.....

Generally any country crossing into another because they dont like who is in charge has been frowned on. Even when its done for the right reasons it hasnt been liked because someone is bound to disagree with who was chosen and why. Often not the first one, but the second or the third such choice. They all gradually get more and more questionable in the eyes of others.

And RUSSIA "liberating" their neighbors from rival empires was land grabbing that's all, they too occupied said nations and turned them into paying provinces with no independant government or anything of that sort.

Again kindof point of view. If you check the list of US territories you find that most of them were areas we occupied after a war for the purpose of helping them recover. And we are still in most of them. To some that would be "spoils of war". Im sure there are good reasons for it, Im just pointing out that the same facts can be worded different ways depending on who is doing the wording.

Now moving onto your remark on those terrorist scum crossing the borders to "liberate" Iraq from the US LIBERATION IS NOT THEIR INTENT! they simply want to kill as man servants of "The Great Satan" as they can else wise they would actually try to defeat the army and not just kill women children and their own "Islamic brothers" without discression....that is not LIBERATION by ANY definition.....

Wow. Where to begin. You dont expect that to sit as a "fact" do you? The way you worded it? Thats what they are doing and how they see it?

[Starhawk]

As far as I was aware Puerto Rico does not pay taxes.

As for US military service anyone can join the US military (as you can gain citizenship through service) so that's not a big deal that these territories can.

A brief bit about the FSM
"In 1979 the Federated States of Micronesia, a UN Trust Territory under US administration, adopted a constitution. In 1986 independence was attained under a Compact of Free Association with the US. Present concerns include large-scale unemployment, overfishing, and overdependence on US aid. "
Not a province as they are not a US territory they are an independent nation.


Wee bit about American Samoa (yeah it's a teritory):

This is a traditional Polynesian economy in which more than 90% of the land is communally owned. Economic activity is strongly linked to the US, with which American Samoa conducts most of its foreign trade. Tuna fishing and tuna processing plants are the backbone of the private sector, with canned tuna the primary export. Transfers from the US Government add substantially to American Samoa's economic well-being. Attempts by the government to develop a larger and broader economy are restrained by Samoa's remote location, its limited transportation, and its devastating hurricanes. Tourism, a developing sector, has been held back by the recurring financial difficulties in East Asia.

They don't pay taxes to us they do however have trade tariffs.

Guam (US Territory no independence)

The economy depends on US military spending, tourism, and the export of fish and handicrafts. Total US grants, wage payments, and procurement outlays amounted to $1 billion in 1998. Over the past 20 years, the tourist industry has grown rapidly, creating a construction boom for new hotels and the expansion of older ones. More than 1 million tourists visit Guam each year. The industry has recently suffered setbacks because of the continuing Japanese slowdown; the Japanese normally make up almost 90% of the tourists. Most food and industrial goods are imported. Guam faces the problem of building up the civilian economic sector to offset the impact of military downsizing.

again sounds like we give them money no mention of taxes being paid.

The Marshall Islands are actually independant:
21 October 1986 (from the US-administered UN trusteeship)

A little on their economy:
US Government assistance is the mainstay of this tiny island economy. Agricultural production is primarily subsistence and is concentrated on small farms; the most important commercial crops are coconuts and breadfruit. Small-scale industry is limited to handicrafts, tuna processing, and copra. The tourist industry, now a small source of foreign exchange employing less than 10% of the labor force, remains the best hope for future added income. The islands have few natural resources, and imports far exceed exports. Under the terms of the Compact of Free Association, the US has provided more than $1 billion in aid since 1986. Negotiations have continued for an extended agreement. Government downsizing, drought, a drop in construction, the decline in tourism and foreign investment due to the Asian financial difficulties, and less income from the renewal of fishing vessel licenses have held GDP growth to an average of 1% over the past decade.

Northern Mariana Islands:
Govermant status: commonwealth in political union with the US; federal funds to the Commonwealth administered by the US Department of the Interior, Office of Insular Affairs

Government type: commonwealth; self-governing with locally elected governor, lieutenant governor, and legislature

Economic status:
The economy benefits substantially from financial assistance from the US. The rate of funding has declined as locally generated government revenues have grown. The key tourist industry employs about 50% of the work force and accounts for roughly one-fourth of GDP. Japanese tourists predominate. Annual tourist entries have exceeded one-half million in recent years, but financial difficulties in Japan have caused a temporary slowdown. The agricultural sector is made up of cattle ranches and small farms producing coconuts, breadfruit, tomatoes, and melons. Garment production is by far the most important industry with employment of 17,500 mostly Chinese workers and sizable shipments to the US under duty and quota exemptions.

Palau:
Independence was given: 1 October 1994 (from the US-administered UN Trusteeship

Economic State:
The economy consists primarily of tourism, subsistence agriculture and fishing. The government is the major employer of the work force, relying heavily on financial assistance from the US. Business and tourist arrivals numbered 50,000 in FY00/01. The population enjoys a per capita income twice that of the Philippines and much of Micronesia. Long-run prospects for the key tourist sector have been greatly bolstered by the expansion of air travel in the Pacific, the rising prosperity of leading East Asian countries, and the willingness of foreigners to finance infrastructure development.

Puerto Rico
Status: Commonwealth

Economic Status:
Puerto Rico has one of the most dynamic economies in the Caribbean region. A diverse industrial sector has far surpassed agriculture as the primary locus of economic activity and income. Encouraged by duty-free access to the US and by tax incentives, US firms have invested heavily in Puerto Rico since the 1950s. US minimum wage laws apply. Sugar production has lost out to dairy production and other livestock products as the main source of income in the agricultural sector. Tourism has traditionally been an important source of income, with estimated arrivals of nearly 5 million tourists in 1999. Growth fell off in 2001-03, largely due to the slowdown in the US economy.

Virgin Islands:
Status: Unincorporated Territory

Economic State:
Tourism is the primary economic activity, accounting for 80% of GDP and employment. The islands normally host 2 million visitors a year. The manufacturing sector consists of petroleum refining, textiles, electronics, pharmaceuticals, and watch assembly. The agricultural sector is small, with most food being imported. International business and financial services are a small but growing component of the economy. One of the world's largest petroleum refineries is at Saint Croix. The islands are subject to substantial damage from storms. The government is working to improve fiscal discipline, to support construction projects in the private sector, to expand tourist facilities, to reduce crime, and to protect the environment.

So a few of the territories you listed are out of date as they are now independent. I'm still looking for their tax paying status.


Though I do suppose you are right about your views on "Liberation" vs "occupation" being a point of view. But if you look at it the US still hasn't fully "rebuilt" many of those territories to where they could function as seperate states as many of them are too poor to function on their own without soon becoming 3rd world nations.

And yeah the fact that the terrorists are scum is kind of a wild opinion that is strictly POV based as I am sure they beleive they are holy warriors and justified.....though I still say they are scum as I'm sure many do.

[Gandalf Parker]

A brief bit about the FSM
"In 1979 the Federated States of Micronesia, a UN Trust Territory under US administration, adopted a constitution. In 1986 independence was attained under a Compact of Free Association with the US."

Not a province as they are not a US territory they are an independent nation.

Hmmmmmm OK that would be a fact. Although the wording of that and the fact that it takes so long for these nations to find a form of government acceptable for independance, is something that people like to look at. I remember the comparisons between these and the Russian countries that we kept calling "satellite not-really-free nations".

So a few of the territories you listed are out of date as they are now independent. I'm still looking for their tax paying status.

Yes I noticed that after I posted it and went to get the source (www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/).
Palua was freed. Nice thing of Clinton. Looks like the only one though. I lost the full list of american governed non-US territorys but thats OK, the point is still made. US does have provinces.

[Ed Kolis]

To Starhawk:
I believe fully in the principles in which the USA was founded. However, the USA today is based on the OPPOSITE of those principles - we have BECOME the Tories, and IMHO it's time for another rebellion! I'm just not the one to lead such a thing...

[Starhawk]

Ever hear of a positive change instead of jumping right into the flag burning government bashing militant?

Sorry but you'll still not get me to agree with you on anything you say as long as you don't even attempt to seek any positive ways of changing things....right now you just sound like a hicksville (I'm from the south so I REALLY don't like the hick stereotype so don't try to sound like it ) militia nut who wants to lead a revolution that would get creamed in an hour because there are too many people who are happy with the government and don't want people like you or with your viewpoint ruling this or any other country.

To Gandalf yeah we do have territories like I said though it seems they cost us money and give us little in return when I say province I mean taxed (as in we get more mone from them then we spend on them) territory that has the choice of either paying or getting creamed by an invasion force ala British Empire .

There is a difference between a territory and a province as far as I'm aware though I could be caught up in semantics there....

[Will]

Where to begin... there's so much.

First off, Starhawk... we're serious when we say please tone down your Posts. The SEIV Forums will not tolerate extended ad hominem attacks, flames, etc.

especially SINCE WE ARE NOT proffiting from the damned war in Iraq....in fact it's COSTING US MONEY....oy

The argument about war profiteering isn't about the US gaining or losing money. It's about the military/industrial complex corporations profitting on an enormous scale because of the war, to the detriment of the rest of the economy. The profits are going to Halliburton, BAE, Saab Missiles, United Defense, Carlyle Group, Glock, Bofors Defense, Boeing, Northrup Grumman, etc, etc... These also happen to be the corporate Groups that own the most politicians...

As for all the comments on the "US bashers", "US haters", "flag burners", and so on. The strength of the United States comes from the fact that its citizens CAN dissent. If there is ever a time when there is no dissent, then I will be very, very afraid... because that will mean that the US is truly no longer a free country. All of your comments, which you seem to indicate are directed at Ed Kolis, are completely false over-reactions, the typical frenzied oversimplifications that drive the radical nutjobs on both ends of the political spectrum. People who are generally high on rhetoric and righteousness, and low on critical thinking skills. Examples:

• the Republican mailings in, IIRC, West Virginia, which say that "the liberals" want to ban the Bible and legalize gay marriage... only half of which is sometimes true
• the "think of the children!" Groups, which seem to use that one argument to justify anything under the sun
• Groups such as PETA, who semi-regularly break into labs, dump fake blood on people, all in the name of treating animals fairly
• Bill O'Reily, Rush Limbaugh, Matt Drudge, Ann Coulter (on that Last one, I can't believe anyone sane would really believe that Sen. McCarthy and the communist witchhunts were really a Good Thing)
• the environmental group that firebomed a few hundred SUVs a while ago (six months?)
• Timothy McVeigh, John Mohammed/John Lee Malvo, Osama bin Laden

All those Groups are guilty of mischaracterizing people they don't agree with, some to a much higher degree than others. Don't make their mistake, please.

As for the whole "liberation of Iraq" thing, I have to wonder if the countries we have "liberated" really are better off now. Afghanistan (which we ignored soon after invading and focus went to an Iraq which was all bark/no bite) went from the centralized, organizing... and oppressive... rule of the Taliban, to a short period of rule by an occupying US force, then degenerated into various territories held by warlords, and is in many ways just as bad or worse than before we invaded. The "provisional government" in Afghanistan is a joke, the only power they have is that of the few US troops we left there. In Iraq, we went in because of a supposed threat of Saddam either giving weapons to terrorists, or not having good enough security to prevent terrorists from taking weapons. We find in hindsight that there were no weapons, that analysts were pressured to conclude that Iraq probably had weapons, based only on Iraqi bravado which was meant to keep Saddam's enemies throughout the Middle East at bay. We removed a dictatorship again, and replaced it with chaos again, as we didn't put in enough resources to keep the area stable. We also removed the biggest asset the US had in the Arab world to hold the power of fundamentalist Islamic Groups in check. While Saddam was not our ally, he was a major reason why militant Groups were not forming in the Middle East as quickly or efficiently as they could have, since they were a threat to his secular state. So, based on very bad decisions that no one is living up to, we have two occupied countries that we screwed up, billions of dollars of the economy going to war instead of back into strenghening the economy, 1000+ soldiers dead, 6000+ soldiers wounded, and the biggest recruitment fair terrorist organizations could have hoped for. Wonderful

Now, all this terrible stuff has happened because of the hawkish policies of the current administration, and the "shoot first, ask questions later" type of personality the President seems to prefer. And you're calling into question the motives of those who are criticizing this government? The simple thing is, this government needs to change, and as I believe was already said by Atrocities on these Boards before, it needs to change through one of four boxes, in the following order: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. This is the soap box. The ballot box for me is in the mail right now (absentee ballot). I can't really sit on a jury with enough power to change much in the government (SCotUS is pretty much the only one with that power). And, if it comes to it, I may go to the ammo box. But unlike this administration, I have some patience before I will put my finger on the trigger, and even more patience before I actually pull it.

Oh, and on Kerry's "flip-flopping": How can Kerry be changing positions all the time, yet be more liberal than Ted Kennedy, as the Bush campaign claims? And why does changing opinions based on new data constitute a character flaw (I thought bull-headed stubornness was supposed to be the vice)? And what about Bush's flip-flopping? Steel tarrifs, not taking money from Medicare/Social Security, the Department of Homeland Security... hypocrites.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Oh, please. This has nothing to do with Iraq or crossing police lines. It's about the US government only letting two parties into the official debates. That is a fault. If you do not like it, feel free to stick your head back in the ground.