game styles

[oleg]

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Several tests here. Started with a BB hull, B/2LS/2QC, 3 Phased Shield V, Mx 5, CS III, ECM III, 3 PDC V, Solar Sail III, Stealth Armor, Scattering Armor. Cost: 11500/200/800

5 different standard weapons tested.

1: 6 heavy PPB V, 1 PPB = +6500/0/3900
2: 6 heavy APB XII, 1 APB XII = +5200/0/1560
3: 9 heavy MB VI, 1 large MB VI = +5850/0/2340
4: 4 heavy QT V, 1 large QT V = +4750/0/950
5: 2 heavy WMG III, 1 large WMG III = +4500/0/2200

All were 5-turn build times.

1 organic weapon tested.
1: 6 heavy HPB V, 1 HPB V = +0/7200/0

3-turn build time.

Organic races can outbuild standard races by 60%, then. Maintenance advantage varied from 38 to 56%. With 3 standard ships to 5 organic ships, the outcome will be a toss-up. With 30 standard ships to 50 organic ships, it's no contest. If the organic race makes first kill, it's even worse. My results frequently had over 35 functional ships remaining for the organic race. Superior numbers seem to be almost as conclusive an advantage as superior accuracy, at least at max tech.

"Quantity has a quality of its own" J.Stalin

[Taera]

That is exactly why i had been playing Organic race since the game was out. Only recently i became bored with it and moved to crystallurgy.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
And just how would you handle building ships twice as quickly, while still maintaining all those vital components that cost only minerals?

Assume your build rate is 4500 (which is what your minimum rate should be as an Organic Race in the mid-game). You can build a good non-organic Battleship for about 18k minerals. You can design a decent Organic battleship for 9k/9k min/org. This means you can can build organic ships twice as fast as non-organic ships. The two to one odds are hard to overcome in the initial contact.

Obviously, both sides can modify their designs after they see what the enemy is using, but, by then, it is usually too late.

-Spoon

[Phoenix-D]

"You can have a lot more ships than me. That is fine. Since yours don't have Quantum Reactors, my ships with Heavy IDs do 120 engine damage per shot. This totally disables one of your ships in one shot"

I keep forgetting the ID doesn't skip shields now. At any rate a supply bay or two would fix the problem without adding much cost.

Phoenix-D

[Raging Deadstar]

Hmm there should be a racial tech that uses radioactives, like the organic componenets are made mostly of organics!

Is there any mods that have done that?

[capnq]

Hmm there should be a racial tech that uses radioactives

I think Temporal goes pretty heavy on rads, maybe Crystalline as well. I'm not sure because I haven't played them nearly as much as I have Organic.

Small Electric Discharge is arguably the best fighter weapon in SE IV.

When you look at the research costs, you have to consider the facilities Organic gets you as well. Medical Labs, Gestation Vats, and Replicant Centers all have significant effects.

[Fyron]

Note: I never once argued against the use of organic armor (or facilities, which I think are some of the best racial facilities ). I only argued against organic weapons.

To me, they are too weak compared to normal weapons to spend time researching them. Even with faster build times of ships, you can't support more of them. Organic ships will die faster than normal, shielded ships, because high level shields are a lot stronger than organic armer (something like 5 HP/KT for OA III, and 13 HP/KT for Shield V). So, the normal ships will Last a lot longer in strategic combat, and the organic ships will die sooner. Combine this with the weaker weapons, and it doesn't seem like a very good late game strategy to me at all.

[Ruatha]

Is it really so?, If you have a lot of organic armor it regenerates.
Those rammers i built regenerated their entire armor before they where at their next victim, taking them out one by one in the battle.

And yes, you can support a larger fleet if you are organic, as the maintnence is more distributed between organics and minerals. Later in the game it doesn't matter but in the beginning it does.

[ November 27, 2002, 21:17: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Fyron]

Organic Armor doesn't regenerate when the ship is destroyed in one round. In larger fleet battles, which is typically how se4 combats are vs. humans, ships are usually destroyed or crippled in one round because the enemy ships concentrate their fire upon them. So, OA doesn't normally get the time it needs to regenerate. If you have a ton of it, then your weapons capacity is greatly lowered, and your ships can't do much damage. Organic Ram ships are easily stopped by Ionic Dispersers. 1 shot from an ID goes right past the OA and knocks out most (if not all) of the engines on the ship. Most good players I have seen stick an ID on at least half of their standard attack ships.

Originally posted by Ruatha:
And yes, you can support a larger fleet if you are organic, as the maintnence is more distributed between organics and minerals. Later in the game it doesn't matter but in the beginning it does.

I personally research Resource Converters as soon as I can. Distribution of resources doesn't mean very much after RCs come into play. Before you gets RCs, you can build more Mineral Miners than Organic Farms, and so the distribution of resources again means nothing for maintenance purposes. I very rarely am unable to have enough planets around to get enough Mineral Miners. And, a 20% racial bonus to Minerals production covers this resource distribution problem very well. Better yet, use Monoliths. Then, it really doesn't matter.

[ November 27, 2002, 22:12: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[gravey101]

I thought there was no carry-over on ionic dispersers. I.e. even if your heavy-mounted ID does 120 kt damage, it can only knock out 1 engine per round, the remaining 100kt of damage being lost as it were.