new discovery's --MODS

[Pibwl]

Does speed of spotter planes matter?... Accidentally, while checking the Czapla, which was somehow faster than basic Polish spotter Lublin R.XIII, I noticed, that most spotters in the game have speed=1, regardless of their real speed, only few are faster, and Hs 126 is an exception with speed 4 - while not being the fastest plane.

(BTW: Polish 618 LWS Czapla was in fact known mostly as RWD-14 Czapla, as Blazejos mentioned - LWS was only a manufacturer of RWD design)

Here is a quick list that I made, with max speed in km/h (the values are taken from Internet pages and they may vary, but they're enough to give a hint). Cruise speeds, which might be more important, were usually lower by 20-40 km/h in speeds below 200, 40-60 km/h in speeds around 300, and 100-200 km/h in speeds above 500 km/h.

Germany
186 - Fieseler Storch - 175 - 1
187 - Fw 189 Uhu - 374 - 2
410 - He 46 - 257 - 1
589 - Arado Ar-196 - 320 - 3
782 - Hs 126 - 356 - 4

USA:
121 L4 Grasshopper - 140 - 1
360 - Curtiss P-6 - 311 - 1
361 - Curtiss A-12 - 284 - 1
362 - Boeing P-26 - 377 - 1
660 - Douglas O-2 - 216 - 3

USMC
090 - Vought OS2U - 292 - 1
095 - Piper NE-I - <200 - 1
135 - Curtiss P-6 - 311 - 1
136 - Boeing P-26 - 377 - 1
283 - Curtiss Seahawk - 504 - 1
319 - F3F-2 Littlecat - 425 - 1
321 - Douglas OD-l - 216 - 3

UK
114 - Auster Mk.IV - 209 - 1
148 - Lysander - 341 - 1
340 - Hawker Hart - 298 - 3

France
046 - Potez 63.11 - 425 - 3
141 - Auster Mk IV - 209 - 1
231 - L3 Grasshopper - <200 - 1
232 - Potez 25 - 208 - 1
236 - Breguet 19 - 230 - 2
565 - Potez 39 - 249 - 2
566 - Breguet 270 - 236 - 2
567 - ANF Mureaux 110 - 320 - 3

Poland
097 - Auster Mk.IV - 209 - 1
601 - PWS-26 - 201 - 1
603 - Lublin R-XIIIA - 177 - 1
604 - Lublin R-XIIID - 185 - 1
605 - Lublin R-XIIIG - 175 - 1
616 - RWD-8 - 175 - 1
617 - PZL L-2 - 183 - 1
618 - LWS Czapla - 247 - 1
619 - LWS-3 Mewa - 360 - 1
626 - Potez XXV A2 - 208 - 1

Japan ...here we have quick ones:
114 - Mitsubishi F1M - 365 - 4
210 - Aichi D1A - 309 - 3
211 - Aichi E13A1 - 375 - 3
212 - Kokusai Ki-76 - 178 - 2
213 - Yokosuka D4Y1-C - 545 - 6
217 - Nakajima Type91 - 300 - 3
642 - Yokosuka E14Y - 246 - 2
644 - Mitsubishi Ki46 - 604 - 6
645 - Mitsubishi 2MR - 204 - 2
647 - Kawanishi E7K - 276 - 3
648 - Nakajima C6N - 610 - 6
649 - Seversky A8V-1 - 316 - 6

If it's useful, I can check the rest. I can also write down cruise speeds.

Provisionally, I'd suggest speed:
- 1 for aircraft <210 km/h (including Auster, Potez 25 etc with cruise speeds well below 200 km/h)
- 2 for 210-300 km/h
- 3 for 300-400 km/h
- 4 for >400 km/h
I don't think, that any spotter flies much faster performing spotting.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by blazejos

I just read about an action done by lone polish R.XIIIG hydro
in 7th September 1939 late evening. His mision was bombing BB Schleswig-Holstein near Westerplatte but when he arrived fighting were finished and batleship already gone in darkness as rest of the city. Westerpllate fall during that day but Lublin crew don't know about this. So they flight over dark streets of Danzig old town and by blind luck or rather by torches lights and loud military music suprised german NSDAP victory parade.
In memories of the crew is mentioned that they relase all 6 small bombs inside happy crowd with flags and torches and use MG from the rear to diperase them.

By the way, it would have been an terror bombing against civilians (like the ones performed by the Germans against Wieluń, Warsaw and then British cities, and then by the Western allies...) - but Polish historian Andrzej Olejko indicated slight doubts in 2018, that there are no signs of such attack in German sources - while it might have been used for propaganda...

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Does speed of spotter planes matter?...

MOBHAck help

MOVEMENT - SPEED OF UNITS

Fighter-bomber and level bomber Aircraft Speed: 1 pt of Speed for every 100 km/h (round up past 50)


Spotter Plane/UAV speed is equal to their normal air speed as calculated for fighter-bombers and bombers. The higher the number the wider the circle the Spotter Plane will fly.

Most are one because most fly under 150km/h and keep in mind, aircraft do not have to fly at their max rated combat speed to fly a spotting mission.


....and we found if the spotter planes fly too fast, then the circle gets too wide and they slide off the map so there is code that limits speed and circle diameter built into the game code- so it matters not one little bit if one has 6 speed....... the game will not fly them at that speed . 3 is the max


The speeds they have work well enough.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

MOVEMENT - SPEED OF UNITS
...
Spotter Plane/UAV speed is equal to their normal air speed as calculated for fighter-bombers and bombers. The higher the number the wider the circle the Spotter Plane will fly.

I could not find this info and was confused seeing, that almost all have speed 1. And does it affect a probability of being shot down?

Originally Posted by DRG

Most are one because most fly under 150km/h and keep in mind, aircraft do not have to fly at their max rated combat speed to fly a spotting mission.

....and we found if the spotter planes fly too fast, then the circle gets too wide and they slide off the map so there is code that limits speed and circle diameter built into the game code- so it matters not one little bit if one has 6 speed....... the game will not fly them at that speed . 3 is the max

Thanks for further clarification. It seems I got similar idea, however I thought about 4

Originally Posted by DRG

The speeds they have work well enough.

As you wish
However, some might need small fixes, for consistency The Japanese have no spotter with speed 1, and the Polish with speed above 1, while the oldest US aircraft are the fastest.

[blazejos]

RWD-8

Most numerous of polish small aircraft's, build in 600 number for civilian areo-clubs and for army as trainer, liaison and many other duties. Was also last aircraft's on polish sky used in October 1939 by unit SGO Polesie in their fights against German and Soviets. In this last battles used not only as observation but also as ersatz support with hand-grenades throw by second pilot like in early days of WWI.




Here are

- Latvian - 40 of them escape in 1939 were used there and then captured by soviets
-Czechoslovakian small number sold in 1937 there
- Polish gray trainer used as ersatz spotter in 1939
- SP-BHX typical polish civilian
- Nationalist Spain small number sold to gen. Franco army
- SP-BLL polish civilian from areoclub mobilised in 1939
- Soviet small number captured in Poland 1939 then in 1940 captured from
Latvia
- VQ-PAK two used by Hagana as liaison in fight with Palestinians since 1938 destroyed before creation of IAF
- captured German probably used as trainers they have small number of them
- Romanians escaped from Poland 1939 also with roundels before April 1941 used as a trainers and probably liaisons. They have 57 pieces
- Hungarians have 2 pieces which escaped in 1939 used as a liaisons.

[blazejos]

In theme of AOP aircraft's

RWD-13
Probably most successfully polish small aircraft. I add also medical evacuation version RWD-13S.

- Polish military army has no RWD-13 in inventory but mobilised them from areoclubs in September 1939

- Polish ambulance version RWD-13S as was used in 1939 such icon
can be usefully in scenario building representing airfields 1939 together with civilian red rwd-13

Then most of this aircraft's escapes to Romania and Latvia. In 1940 Latvia ocupied by USSR so the were captured by soviets. Romania has around 30 RWD-13 and use them on eastern front in Escadrila albă
rest is the history described in books and even movie from 1944

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Squadron_(Romania)
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escadrila_Alb%C4%83



Here great documentary movie with English subtitles
https://armed.mapn.ro/escadrila-alba-2625-25

and here link to IMDB
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0035373/


Yugoslavia buy license and produced their own version Rogozarski RVD-13 also in Medical evacuation variant icon already there. Only one survived invasion on Yugoslavia and was letter used by Croatians,

One aircraft escaped from Hel Peninsula to Sweden and were used in army until 1953 and one to Estonia probably letter in Soviet hands.

20 sold to Gen. Franco and used there in Civil war on Nationalist side as AOP aircraft. There was still used even after 1945.

Germans captured some small number intact and used them as liaisons aircraft.

One was a wedding gift from Poland to Shah of Persia and were used by Iranian air force until 1945

Eight were sold to Brazilian army in 1937 and one is still there in museum.

Hagana buy 2 of them in 1937 and used together with RWD-8 as patrol and liaison aircraft they survived until 1947 and were used in Israel war of independence. Probably first aircraft's of IAF.

Soviets have some number of this aircraft's captured in Poland, Latvia and Estonia but is unknown how they used them.

[DRG]

I may use some of these but not all. The game does not need or use medical evacuation aircraft nor laison and transport aircraft. If it's used for a purpose represented in the game then Maybe it will go in

[blazejos]

Great that some may be usefully.
To finish subject of polish small utility aircraft's used by military RWD-9 aircraft from which evolved mass produced RWD-13. The same machine but with radial engine. Two of them sold to Spain shortly before civil war. Used there on Republican side in artillery observation duties. This lefts in Poland used as civilian aircraft's and destroyed on airfields in September 1939. Two were also used by Czechoslovakian internal affairs Ministry. Probably then in German hands. Also forgoten Rogozarski RVD-8 license build RWD-8 but with radial engine in Yugoslavia.

[blazejos]

Some addition in subject of aircraft's

RWD-5
Polish tourist aircraft not in use by army but in desperate days of September 1939 some used by military. One escapes after begin interned in Romania and brings orders for encircled Warszawa in last days of September.

RWD-15
Extended better version of RWD-13 production start in early 1939. Around 7 produced one sold to Hagana shortly before war and destroyed on airfield in 1947 during Israeli war of independence. Rest serve in September 1939 in polish army then escaped to Romania used during war with Soviets around Odessa last still was in Romania in 1947.


RWD-17
Intended as a replacement new version of universal trainer to replace RWD-8&PWS26 in polish army. Around 20 produced many in RWD-17W version. Most never reach MDLot in Puck. Instead together with RWD-17bis served as observation aircraft's then evacuated to Romania were there were in service until late forties. Two were interned in Latvia probably then in Soviets hands.




Wibault 7C1
French versions also with Naval used on only French aircraft carrier Bearn. Polish license build PZL Wibault 7C1. And Vickers license build 7C1 with radial engine for Chile and with water cooled engine 73 version for Paraguay used in Gran-Chaso war. Paraguay has the same roundel as French so is hard to distinct only by ruder. Hope that Chilean and Paraguayan version maby of same use for scenario creation in green or blue OOB.


PZL Ł-2
Polish observation aircraft used before Lublin finally Lublin R-XIII were chosen because was cheaper to manufacture than Ł-2 and PZL instead start to produce fighters.


PZL P-1 & PZL P-6 & PZL P-8
P-1 was an machine which start the family of famous in early thirties Puławski's fighters. P-6 was an evolution step to use radial engines from which P-7a evolved and P-8 was the last and best but unfortunately in Poland the were never produced water cooled engines so wasn't directed to production by PZL. They were prototypes but will be nice to have them in early thirties to show from which aircraft's polish fighter's evolved.

[DRG]

I added the CANT z.506 to the Polish OOB because I already had an Icon for it and the Poles had one ( 1 ) and I thought I'd add it as a "fun" what-if?.

That addition was not intended to inspire a flood of obscure Polish sport planes and prototypes that might or not have been used during WW2. That CANT z.506 was added as an afterthought at the end of my interest in adding more aircraft to the game so if you're having fun building these then by all means continue as I know how addictive it can be ( 3x as many of mine get rejected than get added into the SHP files )........but don't expect they will be added to the master game.