OT: Words fail me

[Hunpecked]

Alarikf writes:

>> If we are engendering, even in the slightest, a generation of boys who treat women like "objects" then don't you think that we are doing at least some damage to "the objects we call women"?

Note that what I wrote before is still unquestionably true: in the game itself no actual women come to any actual harm. Alarikf's concern is that some hypothetical "boys" playing the game may suffer a hypothetical attitude adjustment that may someday hypothetically result in some hypothetical harm to some hypothetical women. Hypothetically speaking.

Now I'm not up on the latest research, but my guess is that if there was a proven link between childhood fantasy and adult criminal behavior, games like "Grand Theft Auto" would have been legislated off the shelves long ago. No?

>> I mean, shoot man, women are already treated like objects...

Yadda yadda yadda. The question is whether it can be demonstrated (i.e. proven) that this "Pimp" game will cause significant additional criminal behavior. If so, ban it. If not, let it die its inevitable commercial death in the marketplace.

>> Who's to say what I would be like if, instead of D&D I got this "Pimp out women" game when I was fifteen?

My guess is that Alarikf might have played it a couple times, had some laughs, put it away, and gotten "D&D" at his next opportunity. I doubt that "Pimp" has the immersion value of "D&D".

>> But I am not willing to say that such influences make NO difference to a person's attitudes in life and towards women.

In other words, the "Pimp" game (and by implication all similarly "frivolous" products) should be presumed "guilty" until proven "innocent"? If we use that standard, then SEIV should also be banned, because it simply can't be proven that NOBODY is harmed in the slightest by the game (as I suspect numerous SOs can testify).

[Sivran]

There's this game I play. In it I run around with an MP-5 shooting people to death. There's another game I play, and in it I run around stealing cars and killing people willy-nilly.

There's also this game I don't play, but many others do. In it they duke it out mano a mano with fists and various melee weapons. There's a game similar to it, but not requiring so much memorization, that I do play. In it I beat up on thugs, men, women, dogs, laughing fat guys, and people with a real samurai fetish, and people with really bad hair and a superiority complex.

I, and millions of others, do not then go out and do these things in real life. I, and millions of others, choose to play or not play these games. Personally, I would choose not to play this "Pimp" card game. Not because of the subject matter, but because I'm not big on card games. Bottom line, the game is being released in a free country. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Call me nasty names for trying it, and call yourself worse names.

[Grandpa Kim]

Posted by Alarikf:

But I am pretty sure that there must exist *some* line of common decency,

On that I can't agree; at best there is an average. Having found myself part of the outcast, disenfranchised minority more often than not, I strongly resist any such line.

Like Atrocities, I am a strong believer in freedom. Anything that erodes our freedom is bad! If this degree of freedom should be our downfall, then perhaps our species is not the hot sh** we think it is. Personally I think we are that hot, if not impeded by too many rules and laws. Let freedom be the judge.

(Jeez, I sound like a preacher! )

[Hunpecked]

narf poit chez BOOM writes:

>> it was a game about pimps that attempted to turn prostitution into a joke.

Hmmm. I thought narf "got it". As far as I can tell, there are no real pimps in the card game. There seems to be a game role called a "pimp", but AFAIK there is no real prostitution in the game (if there were, then the player would risk arrest...a REAL arrest).

>> Space Empires doesn't turn the murder of planetary populations into a joke

Of course not. There is no murder in the game. There is a game process for planetary "bombardment" that is analogous to the "capture" of a playing piece in the game chess.

>> The petition isn't trying to make the game illegal;

I have no problem with the petition. I suspect, however, that it may not have the intended effect on the game. White Wolf may be counting on such publicity to increase sales.

[Starhawk]

Heh I know people "sorry to say but mainly African American" who refer to their own dang girlfriends as and I quote "Ma' *****" with their girlfriends present and in earshot, but their girlfriends seem to not give a damn, in all honesty it pisses me off when people casually refer to women in such a manner and I'm sorry to say but I've given more then one bloody nose to someone who said something disgusting about this girl or that, for example I knew a 13 year old girl back when I was 15 and I can honestly say this is the first girl I ever felt any serious feelings for and when this little puke said.

"Man I'd like to bend her over and (edited, you can figure out the rest easily." I jabbed him square in the jaw lifted him about eight inches off the ground by his coat and told him that if he ever said that about her again I'd break his jaw.

Well now a days comments like that or referring to every girl as "poo tang," "tail" or other various crudities still makes me really mad, though fortunately I've matured enough not to go making people bleed over such stupid statements but I still often say something about it if the person they are insulting is someone I know..

Anyway my point is I would never approve that game PIMP because it's sick and disgusting, but I also would not ask that it be made illegal because it's none of my buisness they game you decide to play, I Mean to be honest if your out there playng one of those computer generated kiddie porn computer games I've heard about it's none of my buisness because it's not against the law, that doesn't mean I would AT ALL condone it.

We live in a country of limited freedoms where a whiney minority of jackasses who feel they should control what everyone else does can ruin it for the vast majority, because they petition and they nag the government until they get their way, and it's just not right, and those people need to be told to shut the hell up and let other people watch the legal stuff and by the legal stuff they want, especially these danged WHINEY PARENTS commitee's that got some of my favorite shows pulled because "Oh my little johnny might be traumatized" instead of just turning of their own bloody TV!


Well that's my 2c, peace and love to ya'll

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Hunpecked said:
narf poit chez BOOM writes:

>> it was a game about pimps that attempted to turn prostitution into a joke.

Hmmm. I thought narf "got it". As far as I can tell, there are no real pimps in the card game. There seems to be a game role called a "pimp", but AFAIK there is no real prostitution in the game (if there were, then the player would risk arrest...a REAL arrest).

[qoute]
I called it a game...your point?
[/qoute]

>> Space Empires doesn't turn the murder of planetary populations into a joke

Of course not. There is no murder in the game. There is a game process for planetary "bombardment" that is analogous to the "capture" of a playing piece in the game chess.

[/qoute]
Indeed.
[qoute]

>> The petition isn't trying to make the game illegal;

I have no problem with the petition. I suspect, however, that it may not have the intended effect on the game. White Wolf may be counting on such publicity to increase sales.

If nobody tries to stop it, it won't be stopped.

[Hunpecked]

alarikf writes:

>> Ok, drop the games analogy and think about hard core porn?

OK, I'll bite. Here are a couple points off the top of my head:

Good for society

(1) Satisfies a large market demand
(2) Most porn workers earn more than they would in other jobs and so pay more taxes

Bad for society

(3) Some porn workers get in over their heads (look up "Colleen Applegate" on Google)

I'm not sure what the point of this exercise is. Name any industry and you can probably come up with both pros and cons.

>> Does it REALLY matter ZERO?

Um, again I'm missing the point. I can't think of any industry that has ZERO effect on us.

>> I would never advocate censorship...but

Self-contradicting. Either "never" has to go, or "but" has to.

>> Ah, nevermind. I guess I'm not making myself clear - and I'm tired of trying.

Probably just as well. This business about ZERO effect on society is no basis for real-world policies. It makes as much sense as a "zero tolerance" drug policy that bans Tylenol in schools.

[Hunpecked]

narf poit chez BOOM writes:

>> If nobody tries to stop it, it won't be stopped.

Well, I suspect just the opposite, but then I also predicted "Survivor" would be a commercial flop.

[Atrocities]

alarikf said:
But, my entire point is that it's not YOU who I would be concerned about - it would be the kids who get the game, what types of people they grow up to be because of it, and how that affects all of us since we are part of a society.


I don't get your point about child molestation. Child molestation, by definition, is not the act of two consenting adults. (mayeb I forgot to say "adult" - my bad if so). Can you elaborate on what you mean?

I was responding to the comment about the 10 year old being sodemized. That would be child molestation and quite illegal.

When you give up a right or a freedom, in this case just the choice to choose whether or not to buy a game, you give up a lot more than you bargin for. If the law makers can take an inch, they will take a mile. Never give up your rights, no matter how well the law makers package the deal. They will lie to you, bold facely at times, to get you to agree with their POV and allow them to pass their freedom stealing laws.

Because people were willing to compermise and give up freedoms, we now must deal with laws that a few years ago were laughed at when proposed. In a few more years the things that we say will never become laws because they are laughable, will be law. So the line must be drawn, drawn here and now, this far, no further. We have already given up far more than we should in the name of Politically correctness and I am not alone when I say to hell with giving the liberal left, or uber religious right any more power than they already have.

[Starhawk]

LOL you hate the left, hate the right and don't quite fit in the middle

For your info btw AT I am a Christian and a very "faithful" person though sometimes the organized religion part is a bit much, well anyway my point is not all of us are the uber right you know I agree that if a whiny minority is always allowed to have their way we'll all be screwed in a few years.