Unkillable aircraft!!!

[Deputy]

Shan said:

Also, they're really relatively ineffective against infantry in the open (even if infantry is moving)- might score some damage once in a while but all said, not much better that a MMG or HMG squad. I tend to use SP flak to soften up the hordes of infantry but it's a risky job - you have to keep out of range and the effect is small... but as I said, this is true for all autocannons so changin that is kinda impossible.

And this is a MAJOR difference between WinSPWW2 and SP:WAW. Flak guns in SP:WAW are devestating against infantry targets. And well they should be. Turning those flak cannon onto targets that have only skin and uniforms and thin helmets should turn them into hamburger quite effectively. That's WHY the MkII tanks with 20MM cannon EXISTED. Even troops in foxholes shouldn't have much protection, since the flak is air burst and the shrapnel would fly in ALL directions, including down.
Quite honestly, I don't think it's worth it to expend points on flak weapons in WinSPWW2. As you pointed out, they are relatively useless against enemy planes. And they are about equal to machineguns against infantry.
Better to just buy more tanks that are more resistant to bombing and artillery damage and are armed with machineguns.

Dep

[thatguy96]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Marek
Very interesting would you be able to expand on what a low level unit is?
The problem is obviously that enemy units spotted by Light AOP can easily turn out to be friendly and wont appreciate being fired on by there own arty etc. A commander at a "Low" level cant check the spotted units identity. you may as well send the info to someons who can, divisional staff.
Though in the game every unit knows everything on a battlefield you are a brave or a very well informed man to deviate from the plan. Or jump in with an "opportunity" attack.
All these things are normally coordinated from a higher level, the divisional staff, which is where I imagine all ariel recon is planned from and feeds its information into.
Best Regards Chuck.

Aerial reconnaissance and dedicated FAC and artillery spotting is different. The US at least used light aircraft to direct artillery strikes, naval bombardment, and the like in direct or more or less direct (normal chains of command apply) contact with the firing units. The USMC still considers artillery spotting and the like to be one of the roles for helicopters which replaced these light aircraft. These aircraft were also used in the convoy escort role and others where the plan was to spot ambushes and possible enemy formations in real time.

I'd be surprised to find any of the light aircraft in game to be purely photographic reconnaissance, which you are correct, until recently required that film be returned to base for processing and analysis.

Edit: I just went and looked myself and from what I see the only issue is that the aircraft types themselves might be wrong. There's a heavy use of fighters in the USA and USMC OOBs to simulate this, probably because it was easier to copy some basic types rather than add a myriad of little known other types. However, it is still important to note that there were separate designations for Observation (O-X) and photographic reconnaissance (F-X) for a reason, as well as, Liaison aircraft being used in this role (L-X).

[PatG]

Back in ancient times before the coming of the PC, we used to play war games with little cardboard squares on paper maps. In games like Panzer Blitz intelligence and communication was absolute. As a player, you saw all of the enemies deployment and had near absolute control over your pieces. And yet, we had a good time playing and learned quite a bit about both history and tactics.

The SP series takes that to another level. The few double blind refereed Squad leader games I played in those days were an unequalled experience until I picked up SPWW2. Is aerial recce and command control a bit too powerful in SP*? yes - but it is far better than the old board game days.
Until (and a big "if") linked scenarios can be taken to the level where your recce/ground attack plane spots a enemy troop concentration in Scenario 1 but you don't get the report until Scenario 2, it's either go with the existing model or nothing at all.

For PBEM, agree on use of air and recce with your opponent first. For the AI, don't give it any airstrikes (though I don't know how well the AI uses air inteligence anyway).

And for the accuracy nuts, I know I have read a couple of accounts where observers wrote out a quick sitrep, tied it to a wrench and dropped it to the troops below - no developer fixer or stop bath required.

[Marek_Tucan]

Deputy said:
That's WHY the MkII tanks with 20MM cannon EXISTED.

They existed because 20mm offered better AP performance than 7.92mm machinegun and because it had at least some HE shell, but I won't say it was some kind of meat chopper like multiple - barrelled mounts. For one, even though the gun allowed for automatic fire, clip loading limited it significantly (there's somewhere a long thread about the matter whether the burst fire was SOP for Pz II at all). Useful, but definitely not some ultimate infantry killer.

Even troops in foxholes shouldn't have much protection, since the flak is air burst and the shrapnel would fly in ALL directions, including down.

Depends on flak, to my knowledge all small caliber AA of WWII was contact-primed, ie no airburst, and small-caliber airburst comes as late as now. Except for some constructions (German 20mm had it, dunno how many others), where the shell exploded upon impact OR upon tracer burnout. But then it provides you extremely unuseful airburst as it happens in a fixed distance and moreover over a range where your fire is woefully inaccurate. So trenches or almost any cover would be most helpful - the stories with flak mowing down helpless soldiers come mostly from either short-range ambushes or from flat terrain with little cover.
Another edge of flak comes from heavier shells, and thus better performance against cover and various soft or lightly armored targets - as it should have in-game due to bigger warhead rating.

Quite honestly, I don't think it's worth it to expend points on flak weapons in WinSPWW2. As you pointed out, they are relatively useless against enemy planes.

Then, in real life, flak was most significant threat in high concentrations, like around crucial targets or roads, and that was usually behind the scope of frontline SP covers. That's also why there's no heavy flak in SPWW2/SPMBT. In frontline area, flak served more like an attempt to shoo away enemy than to shoot him down (after all, the same as with convoy escorts - their primary task was not to sink submarines but to keep them away from cargo ships).

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
There is also a very short thread called "New info re KWK30/38" that supplies a reference stating that the 20mm as mounted in the pz 2 only fires semi automatic.
One point I would like to make about flak is that if the plane is actually shooting at the flak gun, then the flak gun no longer has to estimate lead. I think this makes it much easier for the flak gun to hit the plane, especially if you have a rangefinder and so know the correct elevation for your gun. This in combination with the much longer effective range of Flak compared to an aircraft. For 20mm flak 38 vs spitfire, the flak can start firing at the spitfire from about 2 klms away while the spitfire has to close to about 300m before he can start firing. considering this, I think that in the game it is a bit too easy for planes to take out flak
Best Regards Chuck

[MajorDisaster]

I havent stuck a oar in for a while. Aircraft are definitely not unkillable but you need to put flak in your core and gain experience with it then you'll catch some of them. I've rarely seen a tank KO'd by aircraft, but disabling is frequent, which is fair enough. And anyway the AI often wastes a lot of it's time disabling halftracks and coming back later to finsh them off when they're already useless to you. My only "problem" with aircraft is their ability to spot armour in woods/built up areas. An amazing talent in a speeding fighter. That isn't restricted to the AI; pilots of airstrikes Ive launched have sometimes displayed awesome eyesight.

[chuckfourth]

HI Majordisaster
Thanks for the advice but I dont play campaign only PBEM. so Ill have to make do with AA as is. Yes I greatly dislike Fighter bomber recon as there is no real world mechanism for any information the pilot may have to get to the ground formations anyway.
Best Regards Chuck.