Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands - Page 4

TirAsleen · #31 March 27th, 2007, 04:54 PM

I don't want to force any fixes, but found this one was obvious. And it turned out it wasn't that obvious for some here after all.

Actually, no upkeep for these free spawns would make this race more playable, if its too powerful people could ban it. I find a lot of other stuff in that game is much more powerful. The playablity of the race was my main concern and its theme and focus, not the balance. And insane ilthids or mindflayer which have a high mind control and have a knowledge over the void....bit unlikely to imagine but everyone to his needs, heh. I have no problem with it, if all players want this as is.

MaxWilson · #32 March 28th, 2007, 02:23 AM

Quote: "You NEED order3, growth3(or they starve for sure), and no cold or heat scales like its possible in ma Rlyeh. You want your freespawns on land so they can attack most nations, with cold3 they would starve and you cannot effort the gold income hit as easily as with MA Ryleh. If those freespawns would not cost gold upkeep it would be possible to build more castles for supplies, though."

Out of curiosity, why not just let them starve? If you're worried about their upkeep, that is. If you're actually using them as chaff to throw at your opponents, they'll be dying fast enough that upkeep won't be as much of an issue.

Caveat: I've never yet played anything but EA.

-Max

Sombre · #33 March 28th, 2007, 02:28 AM

Because if they're getting spawned in huge numbers everywhere they'll also starve the mages and more important units in the province.

So you have to sweep them out every turn to avoid all your mages dying of disease. And that's a bit of a chore.

MaxWilson · #34 March 28th, 2007, 03:04 AM

Hmmm. When supplies are limited, aren't they allocated to more expensive units first? I haven't ever noticed my commanders starving, for example. In a quick test game with LA R'lyeh, I had 135 supply worth of units in a 75 supply swamp, and the diseased units were disproportionately cheap freespawn. Oddly enough, 3 or 4 of my 9 illithids were diseased and starving, too, after a couple of turns, but that might be because they're size 4. The larger, regenerating freespawn were still okay.

I agree that this is another reason you'd want a "disband units" command.

-Max

Micah · #35 March 28th, 2007, 07:06 AM

Max - Commanders don't suffer from starvation (or at least they get to eat first, I've never had enough commanders to exceed supply)

Starvation effects for units seem randomly distributed, although I'm not completely sure on this. I'm pretty certain that expensive units don't have complete priority though. I believe the reason your regenerating freespawn were all starvation free is because I'm pretty sure they don't eat (the lesser and greater othernesses, right? I think those are what you mean by the big regenerating ones)

Sombre · #36 March 28th, 2007, 08:19 AM

Yeah I tested and commanders don't starve, you're right. You still have problems with the lithids starving though.

I really think the underlying problem here is not the freespawn, but the lack of a dismiss button.

Eressil3 · #37 March 28th, 2007, 10:06 AM

I played a game as LA R'lyeh. I don't think to make an economy running is the way to go. It may be better to spread chaos and insanity all across the world !!!

- used dom10 turmoil3/luck3/sloth3/death2/magic3 (why not Death3 ? because I'm a n... beginner)
- my tactic ? pillaging and taxing to destroy most of the whole world income (small map).
- upkeep problem started at turn 40 (which is fine IMHO). I just sent as most horde of chaff as I could on my opponents. Sometimes it opens a breach for invasion and pillaging !
- luck3/turmoil3 => lots of random gems = good help for summons.
- void specters are really efficient to spread insanity (stealth 25). And it's really fun when you check the insanity of your opponent's pretender during battle.
- multiple prophet are great !!! And that army of priest !!!
- used indie nature mages to make "endless bag of wine" for my illithids based armies.
- astral magic is great.
- underwater starting position *may* be a great advantage.

I didn't try on bigger maps, but I found LA R'lyeh rather powerful on this small one. And it was fun to play the great evil which destroy everything on his path. I found these style of play really close to the lovecraft's novels, even if in the novels such an apocalypse is only suggested.

TirAsleen · #38 March 28th, 2007, 11:42 AM

Well, yeah, the mages have no problem and commanders, its the the ilithids as regular and national units you recruit in masses, to be sure they do not starve you need bags of wine or similar items and just take a limited number of freespawns with you, the rest just drains upkeep and need to be transferred to a supply poor area to starve and die. Its just a big hassle to do it but needed once you conquered some provinces with a high dominion everywhere, the upkeep will certainly limit your financial power, if you don't change that by any means.

And yes a disband command would be the solution here as well.

So far i read, many players support the idea of a disband command, and it would make many people happy and solve the problems with freespawns concepts.

RonD · #39 March 28th, 2007, 12:37 PM

But freespawns are *supposed* to be a double-edged sword. I guess some players would like for all nations to have only advantages, and no disadvantages, but how could that be possible without having all nations identical?

For some (most?) nations, the disadvantages simply consist of not having the same advantages as other nations. Pretty much everyone seems to accept that, plus or minus people arguing in favor of a few extra advantages for their personal favorite nation. But for some nations, most notably LA R'lyeh (but there are others), some of the disadvantages are "active" disadvantages.

As much as I would like to be able to dismiss the odd random-event militia, having such a command would massively alter the balance of LA R'lyeh. They would become hugely overpowered if freespawns did not eat and were free of upkeep, or if one could use them where it was convenient and simply dismiss them where they are inconvenient.

LA R'lyeh isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. I tried it in a largish MP game (it was my death-3 R'lyeh that SelfishGene subbed for). I really liked the concept, but there was no way I could properly play a large R'lyeh empire and keep my job. So I just won't play that nation anymore. It doesn't make me feel that the game is somehow worth less because there is a nation I would like to play but just cannot - there are lots of nations that don't fit my particular playstyle (I would not want to play LA Ermor, and I never wanted to play undead Ermor in dom2, either). There are still plenty of nations that do fit my preferences. And the game is still much richer for having the current version of LA R'lyeh, available for someone who wants to give it a go.

Graeme Dice · #40 March 28th, 2007, 01:34 PM

Why are the freespawns supposed to have disadvantages other than their near uselessness in combat? It's not as though removing the upkeep on such troops would make the nation overpowered, because you can't use them with any effect against elite troops anyways. I'm currently experiencing zero losses in matches where 60 F9/W9 LA Mictlan Rain warriors fight against 100+ LA R'Lyeh freespawn. It's also not as though people would dismiss the freespawn unless they absolutely had to, as you will need 10 to 1 odds or better to ensure wins when using them.