Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT's.

[DRG]

Gooseman2448 said:

I guess the fact that a PLATOON of M1A2 cannot kill a MG pit is My problem not the ability of the weapon. I'll make sure I tell my brother-in-law to leave his armor support back at the base, because it is useless to them.

LOL... what a joke answer. You are telling me that 4 tanks 50 meter cannot kill much less hit a target??? Are you telling me all the advanced FC and RF and ACC is useless??

I have been playing SP games and wargames for 12 years so don't tell me about what I need to do. I might as well go back to WAW, atleast the WW2 era weapons are pretty consistant. BTW, I've been through the MARINE campaign several time that was fun, glad I didn't have M1's might have been a BIg problem...

Sorry to everyone else for my return rant.

Just for fun I went ahead and built a test scenario using all the factors you gave me . If there is a problem with the game I want to deal with it ASAP.

-"a PLATOON of M1A2"
-"a MG pit"
- "can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. Forget KILLING it with one shot"


So I built this sceanrio with three MG pits and each one had a platoon of M1A2's around it with three sitting in the hex directly adjacent to the Mg pit's field of fire with one sitting back one hex further

Now, does that sound similar to the situation you were in? I think I covered everything. The platoon of M1A2 all with top of the line RF and FC. A MG pit as those are size zero and that makes a big difference in hitting and the tanks were directly adjacent to the fortification. That's pretty much what you described in you first email....correct??

Then I fired the M1A2 sitting right in front of the MG pit. All three were "one shot, one kill".
The save game is attached.

Maybe I'm just lucky but that seem unlikely three times in a row.

I'm still interested in your save if you have one. There may be extenuating circumstances that caused your units to miss consistently

Don

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
@ M256: hope you didn´t overdo it ? since we want also some challenge in the game playing as US or GER....i woul dbe a better solution to make some russian stuff more cheaper, so player can buy more, which would model to a decree the numbers of the eastern units that woul dbe thrown against us in the 80ties or 70ties....

btw: do you have some space left on your fine page ? i have a modified german OOB which could fit there.....

Hi, Alpha,

Have you tried my modified OOBS?

Well, I don't think I overrated the 120mm guns accuracy... What I did was to put things in perspective within the game's own constraints. It's most unrealistic to have the 120mm L/44 (when I say 120mm L/44 I am NOT referring exclusively to the Rheinmetall gun. I am using this qualification to represent ANY smoothbore 120mm tank gun with a length of 44 calibers) with an accuracy value of 11 when older Soviet 125mm guns are rated 13.

So, I modified the basic 120mm L/44 accuracy to 14. This is still NOT realistic. The accuracy should be higher. But not to disrupt game balance, I kept it to 14.

I was very pleased with the result, but - hey, this is just me. I welcome any positive criticism. What values do you suggest I should use as accuracy for the 120mm guns?

How you would make Russian equipment cheaper? I totally agree the most realistic situation is the traditional "Cold War" one. Hordes of cheap and inferior Soviet tanks against high-quality, high-performance, but seriously outnumbered western tanks.

I have as much space in my website as you want, for you and anyone else interested to post anything related to WinSPMBT - New OOBS, Scenarios, Campaigns, the works...

I am really decided to support Andy, Don, and the Camo Workshop. But the success of any supporting web page or web site depends mainly of the wargamers sending their work to be shared with the community. This I can tell for experience.

I am proud to say that my web site was the main supporting site for SPWAW right from the beginning for a long time. The success we achieved was the result of a combination of my commitment to provide the highest quality web site I could within my possibilities; the wargamers - providing scenarios, campaigns, OOBS, utilities, etc, and the support of friends like Wild Bill Wilder, Brent Richards, and many other talented scenario and campaign designers.

Just send me a private e-mail with your modified German OOB attached and with the info about this OOB to fprado@fprado.com. It will be my pleasure to post it.

Best regards,

Fab

[Fabfire]

JaM said:
Sorry so late, but i have problems to find this buletin.It is writen in Slovak and too technical, so im not able to translate it corectly.But there were two tables. Tab.1 with sumary of comparation fire with sabot ammunition at 1000m with gun fitted externally:
N500 ................ N250
TK.....2A46....YA1.........2A46....YA1
Y......81.......95..............48........67
Z......43.......95..............10........62

Y- horisontal
Z-vertical
N500- percentual share of hits on tagret, in 500mm distance from middle of target
N250- percentual share of hits on target, in 250mm distance from middle of target


Tab.2 is propability of hit from T-72 tank with first shot using APFSDS round at 2000m

Propability with tank gun Rate
2A46..........YA1..........YA1/2A46
0,57..........0,7.............1,23


YA1 is prototype of 2A46MS tank gun.Those tests were made in 1998.

I can send you by mail scanned pages.

Thank you. This is very interesting info.

If there is not any inconvenience to you, I would like to take a look at the scanned pages. My e-mail address: fprado@fprado.com

Best regards,

Fab

[Alpha]

hi fabio,

thanx for all the info.

i agree mainly with your thoughts...but can´t comment on it
seriously cause i don´t know the game mechanism good enough. i played the DOS version of this game only a short time, but now it´s another matter and i like this win version very much.

i also come from SPWAW and i know your name and the others you mentioned, perhaps you also remember me from the matrix forum, my name there was (is ? ) frank w.

yes, your page is cool, this is the reason i want you post my stuff there and also i recommend your page to other wargamers.

perhaps you played H2H ?? check the prices for the russian stuff there. in PBM the russian player can outweight the quite bad accuracy of his tanks with mass. i thought simmilar for this game. but i don´t have enough knowlegde on modern armor...except some websites i read for info on my OOB stuff ( and also some personal experience from my time in the luftwaffe of course i hadn´t much to do with tanks there LOL )...i didn´t touch MBT, APC and IFV at all in my OOB...ohhh i post the the info just here so everyone can read it:

[Alpha]

Fabio: I´ll send it to your email adress at the weekend. need to do some additional testing if formations work in timeframe and if prices are balanced !

--------
Changes:

Weapons added:
--------------

- HK 502 shotgun
- 2 police weapons
- Roland 2 AA missile

Units added:
-----------

- Polizei Trupp ( represent civil police but also "Feldjaeger of the Bundeswehr )
- Bundesgrenzschutz troops ( BGS - paramilitary German forces without conscripts so a bit better exp + morale than normal grunts )
- Luftwaffe Sicherung ( LW - Sich, these are LW troops mainly for the protection of airfields, Nato bunkers, radars, AA instalations etc. )
- Kampfschwimmer ( elite diver troops of the Bundesmarine )
- Pionierpanzer 2 Dachs ( impr. version of PioPz. 1 )
- Roland 2 FlaRak ( impr. version of Roland 1 )
- AA MG unit
- Mehrzweck Raupe ( Bulldozer - use like eng. tanks )
- Gep. LKW ( represents armored trucks like in use at the balcans KFOR )
- some fort types added

Most of these units you´ll find in the "misc" folder.....


Changes to:
-----------

Mountain troops, Boxer IFV, PzH2000, Bell UH1D, SP mortars ammo loadout ( older lowered ) , Alouette carry lowered, Luchs, Wiesel 1 + 2, Kraka, Stinger now Fliegerfaust 2, some names changed....and much other stuff. ( for example i found a wiesel in the orig OOB with 21 (!!) TOW missiles - corrected to real loadout of 8 ! )
-------------

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
Fabio: I´ll send it to your email adress at the weekend. need to do some additional testing if formations work in timeframe and if prices are balanced !

--------
Changes:

Weapons added:
--------------

- HK 502 shotgun
- 2 police weapons
- Roland 2 AA missile

Units added:
-----------

- Polizei Trupp ( represent civil police but also "Feldjaeger of the Bundeswehr )
- Bundesgrenzschutz troops ( BGS - paramilitary German forces without conscripts so a bit better exp + morale than normal grunts )
- Luftwaffe Sicherung ( LW - Sich, these are LW troops mainly for the protection of airfields, Nato bunkers, radars, AA instalations etc. )
- Kampfschwimmer ( elite diver troops of the Bundesmarine )

- Pionierpanzer 2 Dachs ( impr. version of PioPz. 1 )
- Roland 2 FlaRak ( impr. version of Roland 1 )
- AA MG unit
- Mehrzweck Raupe ( Bulldozer - use like eng. tanks )
- Gep. LKW ( represents armored trucks like in use at the balcans KFOR )
- some fort types added

Most of these units you´ll find in the "misc" folder.....


Changes to:
-----------

Mountain troops, Boxer IFV, PzH2000, Bell UH1D, SP mortars ammo loadout ( older lowered ) , Alouette carry lowered, Luchs, Wiesel 1 + 2, Kraka, Stinger now Fliegerfaust 2, some names changed....and much other stuff. ( for example i found a wiesel in the orig OOB with 21 (!!) TOW missiles - corrected to real loadout of 8 ! )
-------------

That's it. Ladies and gentlemen, by the weekend, a new revised German OOB by Alpha will be available at the Armorsite's WinSPMBT Page! Enjoy!

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
hi fabio,

thanx for all the info.

i agree mainly with your thoughts...but can´t comment on it
seriously cause i don´t know the game mechanism good enough. i played the DOS version of this game only a short time, but now it´s another matter and i like this win version very much.

i also come from SPWAW and i know your name and the others you mentioned, perhaps you also remember me from the matrix forum, my name there was (is ? ) frank w.

yes, your page is cool, this is the reason i want you post my stuff there and also i recommend your page to other wargamers.

perhaps you played H2H ?? check the prices for the russian stuff there. in PBM the russian player can outweight the quite bad accuracy of his tanks with mass. i thought simmilar for this game. but i don´t have enough knowlegde on modern armor...except some websites i read for info on my OOB stuff ( and also some personal experience from my time in the luftwaffe of course i hadn´t much to do with tanks there LOL )...i didn´t touch MBT, APC and IFV at all in my OOB...ohhh i post the the info just here so everyone can read it:

Yep. I remember H2H pretty well. Excellent mod. Let's wait the upcoming patch that Andy and Don are working on right now and then we'll look at the possibilities. I'm saying this because it seems that the OOBS are an item which are receiving "special treatment"...

So, I will hold until I can see what changes the new OOBS included in the patch will bring (specially in the area of MBT's main gun accuracy), before making any more OOB tweaking. But I agree with your concept 100%.

Best regards,

Fab

[Alpha]

thx. yeahh, better wait for patch.

btw: this animal is missing also from teh ger OOB:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zwijntje.JPG

( guess what it is ? ) LOL

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
thx. yeahh, better wait for patch.

btw: this animal is missing also from teh ger OOB:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zwijntje.JPG

( guess what it is ? ) LOL

Isn't it the "Keiler"? ROTFL

[kevineduguay1]

Hello folks!

I finnaly made it onto this site.

M256, I like your ideas with the 120mm guns but also look at the sabot range as this effects long range hitting power also. Notice that the latter Russian 125mm guns have a greater sabot range than most if not all the 120mm's. This has to be looked at especially when in another post it was pointed out that the Russian ammo lost energy more quickly than the rounds used by Western countries.