Best Unit in the Game... Any thoughts?

[CUnknown]

PvK -- balanced relative to what? I think tartarians -are- balanced relative to other level 9 summons that require 7 levels of magic to cast, don't you? I mean, clearly, it wouldn't be appropriate to have them balanced on a per gem basis with, say, a level 1 summons that only requires 1 or 2 levels of magic to cast (e.g. a Black Servant).

[Meglobob]

PvK said:

I think Tartarians would be much closer to balanced (and more interesting) if their starting afflictions could not be healed.

I utterly disagree. You would just make another lvl 9 spell fairly useless/boring. Leave Tartarians as is. If you did as you suggest, I would just summon bane lords for 12D gems and never use Tartarians. So you would just remove a fun part of the game. It takes considerable planning and skill to get Tartarians/Chalice or Tartarians/Gift of Health and a decent death/nature income to take advantage of it all. It is most certainly not inbalanced and is very much needed in ending long MP games or long SP games for that matter if you actually want to complete them.

PvK said:I don't particularly like research levels having a strong effect on balance.

Put research upto very hard, then you can battle away with your armies without magic having any real influence.

[PvK]

I think Air Elementals are still very much worth it. They can tip the scales in battles (especially if you do several at once), and still only require an Air-1 mage with one gem.

False Horrors are still worth it too, IMO.

[Shovah32]

Air elementals are fine. Lesser air elementals are underwhelming.

[quantum_mechani]

PvK said:
I think Air Elementals are still very much worth it. They can tip the scales in battles (especially if you do several at once), and still only require an Air-1 mage with one gem.

False Horrors are still worth it too, IMO.

I agree, I use elementals of all types and levels, though of course only in niche situations. I don't think false horror is usless either, though far, far less good than it it used to be. There is a pretty good case for vampires, especially the high research summons, being nerfed to oblivion though.

[PvK]

I meant "balanced, all things that come to mind, sort of considered." True balance isn't measurable in Dominions, nor do I particularly seek it. I was answering the original question that Tartarians seem to me like arguably the best unit in the game based on their strength and magic paths given, for such a low cost in gems. There are many things at the top research levels that tend to overpower things at lower research levels, which is clearly intended as a way to have the game change and move towards a conclusion. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a problem the way they are. On the other hand, I think they'd still be one of the most powerful and efficient summons, and have more interesting thematic limitations (like the way the Allfather and Forge Lord pretenders can't heal theirs), if they couldn't heal their initial afflictions.

I don't particularly like research levels having a strong effect on balance. I actually would prefer it if there were some sort of balance remaining between research-1 spells and research-9 spells, because otherwise the things in the early game tend to become almost completely obsolete by the end. But that's an off-topic matter of personal taste which can be addressed by my own mods.

As for "other level 9 summons that require 7 levels of magic", I don't know that there (precisely) are any. I think other Conj-9 summons with similar magic requirements cost more like 25-40 gems and aren't particularly worth so much more cost. But as Shovah32 pointed out, one doesn't generally have _many_ D7 casters available. And I also consider Ghost Riders pretty dang wickedly efficient at D6 for 5 death gems, even though you don't get to keep anyone from it.

PvK