[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Fyron]

It was a load of garbage the first time we saw it, and it is still a load of garbage today.

[Aloofi]

From the Middle East Watcher:

"Bush Accelerates "Road Map" March 16, 2003

According to the NEW YORK TIMES (1), there is every indication that President George W. Bush is on the verge of the greatest double-cross since the Allied nations sold the Sudetenland to Adolph Hitler. Bush, in a frenzy to save Britain’s Prime Minister Tony Blair and himself, desperately needs a public relations counterbalance to the war against Iraq which cannot be stopped. Bush himself cannot be seen as the same failure as his father - now having pledged enormous physical assets in the Gulf.

Blair has apparently begged Bush for a life ring to save his plunging career. The only thing Bush had to offer was publically exposing the ’unmodified’ "Road Map", as a sop to the British Parliament and others. His excuse will be that Yassir Arafat has (finally) proposed Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) as a figurehead Prime Minister. Abu Mazen will have no real power but for the propaganda purposes that can be sold to the Media and the U.N. He will do to it to pull off the betrayal. Israel will be the bone thrown to the pack to stop their barking as each scrambles to get his share.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon thought he had a solid deal with Bush but he was mistaken. He thought that a ‘modified’ "Road Map" with Israel's 120 corrections included, would be presented to Israel and the world - but - only after the war against Iraq was over. Sharon "thought" Bush would keep his earlier pledge to mandate that Arafat’s Palestinian Authority would first (I repeat first) cease their terror, cease training their children to hate and kill Jews, cease anti-Israel propaganda, and a host of other agreements that, when acted upon - only then would the concept of another Arab Palestinian State begin to take effect.

As it seems to be turning out, Sharon will pretend that what he is being offered is exactly what he had in mind. The trade-off will be what his aide, Dov Weinglass negotiated - or rather had to accept for the needed financial aid to boost Israel’s sagging economy which has crashed due to Sharon and Silvan Shalom’s fumbling. As in the Oslo debate, the words will be there on paper but, as with all the Oslo agreements preceding, only Israel will be forced to fulfill her obligations, denials notwithstanding. The Arab Palestinians will only have to ‘promise’ to try. The words "even-handed" will be the oft-repeated mantra.

It appears that, when Sharon once said that Israel would not be another Sudetenland in order to pacify the Arabs and the other nations, he was wrong.

Sharon, a clever man but, in some ways unworldly, is about to find he has made Israel vulnerable in the extreme. Sharon bet all his chips on the word of one man when he should have also been solidifying his relations with the American Congress and the Christian Right Coalition which is Bush’s political base.

Israel is about to be sold to pay for Blair’s job, Bush’s war and the good will of Arab nations who will continue hating America and Israel - no matter how much Israel is pushed to the wall.

Bush may think that the American Congress, the American people and the Christian Coalition that has been his bedrock, will forget what he is about to do to Israel, but they will not. Bush will pull out all the propaganda stops to make the selling of Israel look like a great leap into peace but, few will believe the hype.

Yassir Arafat still rules but, even if he is killed off, another Arab state of Palestine will still become the most concentrated Arab nation of terror this old planet has ever known.

Sharon, Bush and Blair will be the co-godfathers for years of misery for the 3.5 to 5 million Arabs stuffed into a tiny, dysfunctional State, thereby causing the probable elimination of the Jewish State of Israel. These demographics are the greater threat to the only democratic state in the Middle East and America’s best and most reliable ally.

Those most pleased will be the "Quartet" (the E.U., the U.N., Russia and the U.S. State Department). France, Germany and China will be delighted and Tony Blair will get to keep his job for another few years. NATO, having drifted into irrelevance with the collapse of the Soviet Union, will be given the "make work" job of being the military force guarding the "New State of Arab Palestine" and thereby restraining Israel from responding to ongoing Terror attacks.

I believe that Bush, like his father, will be a one-term President. Sharon will retire to his farm and try to write such memoirs that will explain away his Last years in office when he betrayed all of his principals.

The scum of this planet have been trying to eradicate the Jews for a few thousand years. It appears that, with the help of some weak Jewish leaders, they may very well succeed.

(In the meantime) URGENT SOLUTIONS on the IRAQI TRACK

If Saddam either attacks Israel pre-emptively, or in the first days of the coming war with Iraq s hit with chemical, biological weapons - or even conventional explosives - since no one will know if Saddam’s next missiles will be with the catastrophic WMD (Weapons of Mass Death). Arik Sharon should consider the following strategy of response:

1. Before Israel strikes back, release reports on the damage and human suffering which is taking place due to Saddam’s first strike. (Note! I realize this will negatively impact the civilian morale of the nation, however, there will be certain macabre benefits, as follows):

2. After Saddam’s first strike, Israel must strike back quickly with nuclear weapons across Iraq, to include Bagdad, Takrit (Saddam’s hometown) and the Iraqi military bases, bunkers and Saddam’s palaces (which probably conceal many stores of his WMD (Weapons of Mass Death). While the Arab world, America and the E.U. will object, it will be hard to make their case if, as I said earlier, an International news report is issued on the colossal damage done by Saddam’s expected first strike on Israel.

Israel’s retaliatory strike may not be liked but, it will be understood. It will shield Israel from efforts after the Iraqi war to punish Israel with various embargoes, trade restraints, imposition of foreign troops as in Bosnia, even the possible emplacement of a new NATO (without America) positioned as if they are a "peace-keeping" force or "international monitors" to allegedly "protect" the Arab Palestinians from Israel’s efforts to control the Arabs’ Terrorism.

3. Release videotapes of the damage done in Israel for International distribution. Insist that the foreign Media use their satellite feeds to transfer the scenes to American, European and Arabic networks.

If we must suffer the consequences of a first strike from Iraq, then make use of it. Israel was requested/ordered by America NOT to strike Iraq pre-emptively and to exercise their proverbial ‘restraint’, which Israel did religiously.

This should be repeated in nationally televised speeches by the Prime Minister - before their retaliatory strike(s). Hopefully, Bibi Netanyahu will be similarly urged to make the point that Israel - at great risk, restrained herself in deference to the requests by President Bush.

Israel would have paid the highest price any nation could be expected to pay in order to accommodate a friend and ally. Having been hit by an enemy with whom no one could reason, and having sustained unacceptable casualties, we have had no choice but to eliminate an enemy who has shown himself ready to destroy Israel and any other nations who stand in his way.

Message: "We regret that we were forced to make the choice between elimination of our own people and the destruction of Iraq."

This message should be repeated numerous times. International journalists should be briefed several times a week and, if necessary, be forced to transmit Israel’s message or be ejected from the country as supporters of hostile enemy actions. Israel’s future ‘vis a vis’ the U.N. and the E.U., America will be shaped by the thoughts and positions taken by Israel during the time of war.

1. "Bush Promises to Adopt Plan for Mideast" by Steven R. Weisman NEW YORK TIMES March 15, 2003

[Mephisto]

It is, Baron, but most people prefer not to see it. Or they just refuse to think about it.
You are right about the international law matter and I fear that in the long run the US and the rest of the world will see what they have done when they abandoned the law in favour of might.

[jimbob]

Aloofi:

Or better yet, Isreal should set off a cluster of nukes in the Iraqi desert to show how it could have made a giant mirror out of downtown Bagdad, but "once again" was capable of demonstrating a super-human amount of restraint. It would be important that Isreal somehow manages to broadcast the unbelievable sorrow of a devastated Israel.

I'd suggest that the desert-->insta-glass demo be postponed at least 2 days after the Isreal incident, to allow some play time of the Isreali sorrow. Otherwise, the world press will focus instead on the "plight of the Iraqi Red-Brested Desert Tit" or the "devestation of the rare Double-Barrel Euphrates Spine Cactus" following the "uncalled for" Isreali reprissal against the vast unoccupied Iraqi wastes.*

* Perhaps I seem a little pesimistic about the objectivity of the worlds' press agencies regarding the likelyhood of Isreali suffering getting equal air time with the suffering of others. In my defence I'll simply say that, while I don't know about the rest of the world, our major news agency (the CBC) loves to report things like

Isreali tanks rolled into Gaza again today, reportedly killing 12 Palestinians and destroying a number of homes in response to yesterday's bombing attack.

They never say that the bombing attack targetted and killed a bus load of children, or that the bomb killed a group of people who were doing nothing more than a little Sunday shopping. I'm pretty sure that Jews have funerals, but I've yet to see one displayed on my TV! (okay, that's a bit overboard, I have actually seen two scenes of Jewish mourners over the Last few years, one of and Isreali family, the other of a Dutch-Jewish family on holiday). And when do we ever actually get confimation on the numbers of Palestinians killed? Remember the Jenin (sp) masacre - three weeks later we learn from UN observers that not one person had been killed! But retractions don't make front line news... just unconfirmed, questionable numbers.

Well thats my opinion, take it for what it is (or isn't) worth.
And from the other Canadians: am I reading the CBC wrong here? What's your opinion?

[Rigelian]

This message should be repeated numerous times. International journalists should be briefed several times a week and, if necessary, be forced to transmit Israel’s message or be ejected from the country as supporters of hostile enemy actions.

This guy really means that doesn't he? No trace of irony discernible... presumably what he'd really like to do is line them up and shoot them if they don't report the 'right' story.

But apart from the scary mentality revealed here, there is one viewpoint that I would really like to understand. From my perspective (pro-US Brit, for what it's worth) I have never been able to understand this - why does Israel consider itself to be such a great ally of the USA? The converse goes without saying of course. But Israel is a financial drain and a massive political liability to the USA, and should be grateful to have such a loyal ally. Frankly, if the US says 'jump' then Israel should be saying 'how high', not *****ing about the US considering it's other interests and alliances for once.

Any of you Americans feel that way? Because I would in your shoes.

[rextorres]

I am not sure what statistics you guys are quoting but 3-4x as many Palistinian have been killed than Israelis and more Palistinian civilians have been killed than Israeli.

The symantics in the American media are appalling. Everytime an Israeli dies it's a massacre and everytime a Palistinian dies it's collateral damage. Any Palistinian who defends his city is a gunman Israeli invaders are soldiers. Illegally occupied areas are called settlements. etc., etc.

If some israeli occupier came into my country and displaced me and some israeli tanks came into my city even though I was minding my own business I definitely would pick up a gun and fight back.

If my son were "accidently" killed as collateral damage I would probably be angry enough to exact revenge on the people of the state that supported that government.

The Palistinians are simply doing what a lot of you have stated in this forum that the Iraqis should be doing - "fighting back against an oppressive regime". Someone even quoted Patrick Henry if I recall correctly.

[ March 19, 2003, 23:10: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SgtBigG:

quote:

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To not go ahead would mean some loss of face. Some nations may revise their opinion that the U.S. is a paper tiger which couldn't be further from the truth.

Major expense was incurred to no avail if they do not go ahead.

So thousands of people will die to prevent a loss of face and because of the expense incurred? That doesn't seem like a real good reason for war.

---

A few thousand deaths in a war are absolutely nothing compared to how many of his own people Saddam has already killed, and will kill in the future if he is not stopped. We are not fighting a war to "save face".

---

Well Fyron would you be willing to die. Or would you want someone you know to die to displace Saddam. It's easy to dismiss "a few thousand deaths" as long as it's not you or someone you know.

[Rigelian]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isreali tanks rolled into Gaza again today, reportedly killing 12 Palestinians and destroying a number of homes in response to yesterday's bombing attack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They never say that the bombing attack targetted and killed a bus load of children, or that the bomb killed a group of people who were doing nothing more than a little Sunday shopping

The only objective thing to do is to report both of course. I don't know about CBC but I'd say that overall the BBC does a decent job of that. But they still get criticised of course. It is a firmly held conviction in the Arab world that an Arab life is considered to be worth less than an Israeli one (by the West). Maybe they should watch CBC...

The interesting thing here (for me) is the subtext that Israel is held to higher standards than the Palestinians. I agree that this is indeed the case. For example, the Palestinian Authority are mainly incompetent crooks who have embezzled or wasted millions in aid; but you are much more likely to hear about some slightly dodgy farm deal that Sharon was involved in. This may seem unfair but it is inevitable for two reasons;

a) Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful. If you don't see the buildup/provocation, there seems no excuse for a soldier with a rifle to fire at someone throwing rocks at him. Or to drive his tank through a building. The gut instinct is always to side with the underdog.

b) The Western media will hold 'Western' cultures to higher standards than others, every time. In the case of Israel the assumption, usually unspoken, is that Israelis are more 'like us' than the Arabs and are held to those higher standards. After all, Israel is a democracy, has diverse multi-party politics, free speech, a market economy, high technology, Nobel prizewinnners...its a Western country. This can be argued pretty strongly to be a form of racism in itself of course. But it's not anti Israeli at all, but the opposite, however unfair and frustrating it might seem.

[tesco samoa]

I think that links like that would be from Michael Albert, Noam Chomsky, David Baramian, Edward Herman James Petras, Steven Shalom, and Howard Zinn. Even Jello.

Fantastic writters. Though I do not always agree with what they write. I do enjoy reading their words.

[Thermodyne]

Change of pace

Looks like there may be some in the EU who arn't all that chummy.

____________________________________________

DATE=3/19/2003

TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT

TITLE= EU / SPYING (S-O)

NUMBER=2-300903

BYLINE= DOUGLAS BAKSHIAN

DATELINE=LUXEMBOURG

CONTENT=

INTRO: Officials in Brussels say telephone tapping systems have been found on the phone lines of several countries at the European Union headquarters. The discovery was made before an E-U summit scheduled for Thursday. Douglas Bakshian is monitoring the situation from Luxembourg.

TEXT: E-U spokesman Dominique-George Marro says the devices were found at the E-U Council building. The spokesman says devices were discovered on the telephone lines during a regular security check a few days ago, but only a small number of lines are affected. The E-U says the phones of the French and German delegations were tapped, and the British delegation says it was also tapped.

Other reports said the bugging system was apparently put in place through a switchboard to monitor telephone lines to rooms used by delegations inside the building. The E-U spokesman said an investigation has been launched and there is no immediate indication who is behind the bugging.

Leaders of the 15 E-U nations are to hold a summit in the same building Thursday and Friday. (SIGNED)

NEB/DB/AWP/RAE/KBK