OT: Building a new computer...

[Atrocities]

What is better, water cooling the cpu, multiple case fans, or a combination of both?

[Randallw]

Well the technical guy at one of the shops said they can't give me a 120mm fan but I don't think it is necessary any more. The ones they had on display made no real noise I could hear, granted I am half deaf. He said stuff about bad bearings on old ones and needing to cool the processor which isn't needed so much now with dual and quad core.

The Quad core one they had was way too expensive, and I am willing to pay well for a good one that will last. I think the major addition was a HD-DVD/Blue ray drive I don't have any interest in. He was telling me the HD-DvD was worth it alone as it would cost A$1500 to add it later. Obviously out for a commision I think.

Another store had a quad core without that stuff but the young guy there couldn't tell me what it lacked (ie better than generic hardware) that made it so cheap.

I know people said Quad core isn't necessary and I discussed that with the guy but might it be worth it since the computer is to last 3, maybe 4, years?. Starting with Quad core might let it last longer as future software is built with it in mind.

On a related note. Interesting story. When I went to the first store the salesguy trying to get me to take the Quad core hog with HD-DvD drive, was stunned when I started discussing technical stuff.
"You'll have to talk to my manager" he said. So I start talking with the manager who could discuss technical stuff and he got annoyed when he realised the salesguy had dissapeared off to lunch it seemed. His words were I think
"he has to learn to stay and learn if he wants to stay in my computer department" the salesguy was older than the manager, who didn't appear that young.

Incidentally, can anyone explain if Vista Ultimate is the best? The computers I saw all come with Ultimate. I asked if despite being "ultimate" that still meant it was the worst version. I know as they go up in quality they include components that might not be necessary for someone who just wants to use it at home.

[Fyron]

Anyone that tells you that it is not necessary to have proper case cooling (at least one intake fan on the front and one on the back) should be summarily ignored. You especially want an intake fan blowing air over your hdd bays... Sure, a core 2 duo might put out a bit less heat than a Pentium 4 Extreme or whatever, but it still makes a lot of heat under load. So does the RAM, motherboard, video card, hdds, etc. Nothing but CPUs has really had much engineering done towards reducing energy usage and heat output. You want some airflow going through the case. You do not need to create a wind tunnel, however. Slower, quiet fans are good for case fans (many people even voltage-mod their case fans down to 5 or even 3.3 volts, for even less noise output). Panasonic makes some good case fans (Panaflo), for example. Most motherboards can control fan speeds based on thermal sensor readings, and slow them down when less heat is being generated. You could also get fans with built-in switches to control speed, or one of those front-mount fan control panels.

Quad core is still snake oil for 99% of people. It is not worth the extra investment. Any worthwhile motherboard you get will support both dual and quad core CPUs. By the time quad core is really necessary, you will be able to get a replacement CPU for less than the difference in cost between the dual core and quad core you would buy today. Die shrinks and process improvements make silicon get real cheap, real fast. Then you've got inflation working to your advantage; just look at how cheaply you can get 3-4 year old CPUs today. It never makes any sense to buy bleeding edge technology. CPUs and video cards are particularly bad, with massive markups on new architectures for the first 6-12 months.

Standalone HD-DVD players do not cost anywhere near that much money... and by the time you would consider getting one for your PC anyways (after affordable burners come out), they will cost $30-50 US.

[Randallw]

I remember with an old one I was told it was too old to handle a new cpu. You say motherboards these days will be able to handle a quad core come its time, ok then. You are clearly the expert. To paraphrase Blackadder

"That I cannot say, Sir. I am one of those people who are quite happy to use computers but have absolutely no idea how they work"

well maybe a bit.

He wasn't advocating the total removal of fans, not that I think that's what you mean, but he said back when there was only one core it might only be 200Mhz (his words) and they buried it under a lump of cooling so they could overclock it to Ghz speeds. Didn't add up when he said it but I don't know how overclocking works unless you immerse it in liquid Nitrogen.

The DvD stuff was I think HD-Dvd and blue ray combined. Of course the massive cost might have also included the monitor and other stuff. I wasn't paying much attention to that one. But it surprised me when I saw another quad core system for nearly half price. Of course that didn't include monitor and looked a bit generic.

It wasn't that I doubted before, I believe what you say, only that I was keeping in mind it's usfulness in future but what you say about replacing the cores seems to make sense.

Furthermore, do you think 2GB of Ram is sufficent for now or should I continue to consider the future and go with 3GB?. Ram is very cheap these days.

Edit: My current system has three fans that I can see. One intake vent at the front and 2 (power supply + 1) in the back. I don't mind saying for years I didn't even realise the raised edges along the front were an intake. I commonly don't make the leap that normal people might.

[Fyron]

I'm not talking about an old motherboard supporting brand new CPUs, but rather what is now a fancy quad core supported by your mobo becoming a bargain-basement priced part in a few years time. Have little doubt that in 3-4 years, the mid-high end CPUs won't work in whatever motherboard you get today. Of course, if you have a huge budget to blow through, a quad core CPU won't necessarily hurt much. It just tends to come with a rather large jump in price... I'd rather spend that money on more RAM or more HDD, personally.

200 MHz CPUs cannot be clocked to GHz frequencies without some massive liquid nitrogen based cooling and a heaping spoonful of luck... Sane over-clocking might net 10, 20% more clock frequency (depending on CPU and mobo chipset). Going much over that tends to cause rampant instability.

Make sure to buy your system with gigabyte sticks of RAM. Nothing is worse than getting 2 GB, and later finding out it was really 4 x 512 MB sticks so you can't expand cleanly... If you are going to stick with XP, 2 GB is more than sufficient. If you want to go with Vista, 2 GB is probably still sufficient. It couldn't hurt to slap in another GB either way, though. Make sure they are giving you a competitive price with purchasing RAM separately though (particularly from a good, cheap online vendor), and not gouging you for extra profit margin. RAM is one of the easiest things to install into a computer.

HD-DVD and Blu-ray are not worth investing in at this juncture. The quality improvements over DVD in an up-converting player are marginal at best (even with a nice HDTV), for a massive price premium. Best to wait until they hit price levels equivalent to today's DVD, in either a combo player or just one format, with the other going the way of Betamax.

[Randallw]

GB RAM sticks, ok.

I last asked about it a month or so ago, I believe it was something like A$100. I assume that's per GB but I'll have to check. At the current exchange rate that's about US$90. I have a dread of doing technical stuff. Opening the case and blowing out dust is about as far as I feel comfortable with, although I have on ocassion replaced a CD or DVD drive.

I have no interest in HD-DvD or blue ray. I don't concern myslef with having the flashiest electronics. It took until my birthday 2 or so years ago before I got a DvD player. It broke awhile ago and I was only interested in a simple replacement without surround sound or fancy stuff. Of course being cheap sometimes mean you end up with cheap crap that goes though 2 machines quickly before you learn your lesson.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Installing stuff in the computer isn't that hard, although I do reccommend having a qualified person look over your shoulder until you get the hang of it - And for more complex stuff, a second head can help.

[Atrocities]

Again, water cooling the cpu or more case fans? Which do you think or know, is better?

[Ragnarok]

Atrocities said:
Again, water cooling the cpu or more case fans? Which do you think or know, is better?

Unless you have an extreme gaming/performance machine that rivals anything near supercomputer power, I'd go with case fans.

Water cooling is neat and all, but I am not comfortable with water running through my computer.

Oh, and for all of you who helped me when I created this thread, thanks again! I have my new computer and it has been running smoothly for several weeks now. Grand total for just the PC was $735. I'll post specs later on.

[AstralWanderer]

Atrocities said:
Again, water cooling the cpu or more case fans? Which do you think or know, is better?

Water cooling should be more effective and (almost surely, depends on exact setup) quieter than case fans - but it does have complications...

1). You have to make sure that your setup is totally leak-proof (conventional wisdom is to run the cooling for 24 hours without the PC switched on, in order to check for leaks). If you are chilling the water to below-ambient temperatures (e.g. by using a phase change or thermo-electric cooler on the water) then you may also need to lag everything to prevent condensation from causing similar problems (depending on the chiller temperature and the dew point of your PC's surroundings).

2). You will need to use distilled water with additives to avoid algae buildup (not harmful but looks bad) and galvanic corrision. These additives will need topping up every year or so.

3). Hardware changes (new graphics card, extra RAM) are harder to do with water-cooling pipework in the way. You may also need to drain the system to swap out a water-cooled item (CPU, GPU).

There are a number of forums with more information on the more "esoteric" forms of cooling - Xtreme Systems being one of the largest and worth checking out for those interested.