upkeep

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income for some players. I've witnessed strategies where allied players(hotseat) would never exceed X amount of gold upkeep [...]

What I wrote is exactly

Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income

Notice the use of the verb tend? It's a general rule. And you're trying to refute that with atypical examples where it isn't applicable because of players' choices. So basically your point is Trolls should be changed because of special rules or alliances you use only on XL maps? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
They're available early, need only a level 3 mage to summon, and are flexible in their summoning, allowing you to save on gems or on mage time, depending on your priorities.

You need LEVEL_6 Conjuration... that's not early. Also Vine Ogres are ready at level_3 where it's possible to get 2 or more per gem... plus they don't have upkeep and won't retreat like Trolls. If you're looking for a better deal for a mass of units all at once it's the pale riders. The pale riders LEVEL_5 Enchantment, zero upkeep, cheaper per gem, won't flee like trolls, faster then trolls, and more resistances.

Also both vine ogres and longdead horsemen don't eat. So if you're popping out 10 trolls/per turn I could match this with at least 15 vine ogres/per turn. And on the other scale if you spend the 90 Earth GEMS for two troll kings and 30 trolls... I guarantee a matching 90 death gems for 180 longdead riders and possible to get over 200 longdead riders would cause LOTS more damage... unless your opponent has over a dozen priests waiting.


Also more importantly even if you do have lots of successful armies of trolls... the upkeep will hurt even after 10 turns it's 600 gold for just 15 Trolls. The longdead riders and ogre vines cost nothing and won't retreat either.

[ July 15, 2004, 01:45: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So basically your point is Trolls should be changed because of special rules or alliances you use only on XL maps? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow.

That's not what I've been writing... my point is that trolls have an upkeep which doesn't match their true value.

Lets say I give you 100 Trolls during the start of a game... and I start with 100 Vine Ogres. I didn't even include the bonus I could get from the vine crown. Now keep in mind your Trolls are LEVEL_6 Conjuration and mine are only Level_3. If you eventually meet on day 10 for battle... you have spent almost $4000 gold on upkeep(3 died). I had an extra $4000 gold to spend on well you name it. Then your 97 Trolls fight my 97 Vine Ogres... you're trolls will almost always lose because the trolls eventually retreat and/or the $4000 gold allowed me to arrive with 5 times as many commanders you had thus more spells helping me and hurting your army.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Lets say I give you 100 Trolls during the start of a game... and I start with 100 Vine Ogres. I didn't even include the bonus I could get from the vine crown. Now keep in mind your Trolls are LEVEL_6 Conjuration and mine are only Level_3. If you eventually meet on day 10 for battle... you have spent almost $4000 gold on upkeep(3 died).

While I agree that troll upkeep is greatly overpriced and strongly discourages the use of trolls, I think the point you're missing here is that trolls cannot be used like Vine Ogres!

Building up a massive hoard of vine ogres is a perfectly serviceable deal, since Vine Ogres cost nothing: Trolls, however, cannot be used in such a manner. Trolls are best lobbed at the enemy in suicide assaults that hopefully take ground, or at least distract your enemies, generally because they came as byproduct of the King summonings, and you want the king, not the trolls. Kings good, trolls bad.

[NTJedi]

Yes I agree, the Kings are definitely good... especially the Sea Troll King.

[VALENT]

a small question : does the upkeep is important to play? i mean i have seen that every time i recruit units the upkeep is a little biger ( iam french and my english is not very good!!!). does i have to take care to recruit not too much units because i cannot have food?if i take some independants province i can recruit units? is that a relation between provinces,upkeep
and recruit army? what can i se this relation?
i try to understand your discussion about troll and draconian , what is the best and easy to resume for a beginner? What is the best summon for the beginner in the Ulm ( earth)
someone can help (nagot) , please?
thinks
phil

[Sheap]

Food and upkeep are different. Most units need food, which is called "supplies." This is calculated individually for each province. Each province has a number of supplies in it, which might be modified by growth or death scale, the size of the population and where the nearest friendly castle is. Some units don't need supplies (undead and trolls, and some summoned creatures) and some actually produce supplies. If there are more troops than supplies in the province, they starve. Starving units lose morale and get afflictions and diseases.

Upkeep is different. Upkeep is measured in gold, and it is calculated based on your whole empire. Every unit requires upkeep equal to 1/15 of its initial cost, or 1/30 of its cost if it is sacred. Most summoned units don't have any upkeep, but some (including trolls) do have upkeep. Trolls have lots of upkeep.

[Rainbow]

Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.

code:

---

  

         Sz HP Prt Mor Mr Enc Str Att Def Pre MV

Vine Ogre 3 53  5  50  5   0  18  12   3   0 2/12 

SA: 100 PR, NNE, Mless, Frst Srvl



Troll     3 35 14  14 14   3  22  10   9   8 2/13 

SA: Regen (4), -25 FR, NNE, Mtn Srvl

---

As I recall, trolls use two-handed mauls, and vine ogres use fists. It's going to hurt, bad. Hurts just thinking about it.

/Rainbow

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Rainbow:
Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.

Yes, Trolls are certanly stronger than Tree Ogres in equal numbers, no doubt about that. For somebody made out of wood, Tree Ogres have surprisingly thin skin, and there rest of their stats, other than hitpoints, are also unimpressive. They are very good meatshield that do not rout, but not much more.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Rainbow:
Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.
As I recall, trolls use two-handed mauls, and vine ogres use fists. It's going to hurt, bad. Hurts just thinking about it.

/Rainbow

100 trolls vs 100 vine ogres will win mostly yeah right . but as NTJedi and i said 100 trolls cost 400 upkeep . if you say everything is equal , you and your oppenent have about the same number of provinces and income and gemincome then your opponent can afford 40 150 gold cost mages or 20 300 gold cost mages for the 400 upkeep you pay for your 100 trolls .
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

Originally posted by Norfleet:
While I agree that troll upkeep is greatly overpriced and strongly discourages the use of trolls, I think the point you're missing here is that trolls cannot be used like Vine Ogres!

Building up a massive hoard of vine ogres is a perfectly serviceable deal, since Vine Ogres cost nothing: Trolls, however, cannot be used in such a manner. Trolls are best lobbed at the enemy in suicide assaults that hopefully take ground, or at least distract your enemies, generally because they came as byproduct of the King summonings, and you want the king, not the trolls. Kings good, trolls bad . [/QB]

yep the kings themselves are quite useful . unfortunately they cost upkeep but for the special abilities you get from them ( especially the sea king ) their upkeep is reasonable .
the problem is that you can't summon a troll / sea troll king alone . you always get the in the long run unwanted trolls too .
the nettocost of a troll king is 30 gems .
if you already have earthmages ( e.g. ulm ) there is no need for a troll king .
a troll king has only earth 3 , costs 10 upkeep and 30 gems . a lamia queen is a much greater mage , costs only 15 gems and is the same conjuration level .

conclusion : the trolls / troll kings are almost useless the only reason why you perhaps summon 1-2 is if you want to ensure that you get decent earth magic item forgers .

the sea trolls / sea troll kings are a bit different because they are of greater use .
the sea trolls enable you to fight underwater .
the sea troll king has the unique ability to produce gems as non unique summon.
so for the sea troll kings i agree finally with Nagot Gick Fel that they but only they need upkeep costs but for a different reason .
if they would not need upkeep you could hord them . they produce water gems themselves and are water 3 mages . so after 45 turns you got repaid your summon costs . and you could forge hordes of clams with them with their own water gem income .

so either let the troll kings too generate 1 earthgem / turn or make them upkeepfree.