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  #41  
Old August 2nd, 2001, 07:22 PM

Nitram Draw Nitram Draw is offline
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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

I know that if you are convinced something can't be done you are beaten. I believe anything is possible, especially if you don't know any better.
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  #42  
Old August 2nd, 2001, 09:02 PM

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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
I know that if you are convinced something can't be done you are beaten. I believe anything is possible, especially if you don't know any better.


A perfect straight line available when I came back to post! Thanks!

I know about UPS but never needed one before. The problem is a circuit breaker that trips in the new house. I have been informed that the problem will go away in the next few weeks as microfuzz causing heating on the contacts wears down. Since my bank account is seriously depleted by the move, I would have to wait till next month to spring for a 2 hour battery backup UPS anyway, because it costs $200.

Just out of curiousity since there seems to be some interest, I did a web search using Hotbot with the following results :
1) general purpose simulator -44,200 2) same +macro -5900 3) same +parse -1200 4) same +relocatable -56 5) same +overlay -43 6) same + macrocommand -1
So it looks like there is probably action going on, but most of it is not posted where the public can see it. The searches at level 4+ mostly hit on dictionaries.

"What we have here is a lack of communication."

Basically a macrocommand is an instruction in a LANGUAGE INVENTED ON THE FLY. As an example TDS-11 had over 300 macrocommands of varying length written in assembler. Assembler was used because it was a 1982 PDP-11 under RT-11 in a 64k byte address space. So both time and memory were critical. Nowadays a macrocommand would be written in any language at all so long as the MIE and RE working together know how to call and pass a single address to it - the address of its ADB. You invoke a macrocommand in the macrocommand language instruction files by simply giving the name of the relocatable code file as a command name, followed by the list of calling arguments referencing macrocommand variables. Each relocatable file has a function in it labeled the same as the file name, which is the entry point function. The functions in the macrocommand file are allowed to call any function library routine by invoking the engine function calldown with the (engine designer defined) index number of the function to be called and a pointer to a structure containing the required calling arguments of the invoked function. A macrocommand function in one relocatable file is NOT allowed to call macrocommand functions in other relocatable files, because it would not know the address. If you want to do that you do it as a macrocommand language instruction to be parsed. The most powerful macrocommands are CALLU/RETU the universal call/return and FORKU the universal fork. They are provided by the engine designer. Basically CALLU must make sure the invoked macrocommand language instruction file has been loaded into memory, if not load it. Then point to the next line to be parsed in the current file in the macrocommand call stack and start parsing at the line label in the new file's stream of macrocommands. RETU simply pops the stack and resumes parsing there. With FORKU you provide a macrocommand variable name containing an index and a list of macrocommand line labels in the current file being parsed. It works just like a computed goto.

So basically you see that the GPS engine is an interface to an operating system(s) that makes it possible to mix Languages in the same application and to add new functions to an application without having the language specific source code for existing functions - programmers paradise. It does not have to be a linker for labels found in the relocatable files except for the one entry point function in each file because all other labels are resolved locally by the compiler used by the macrocommand author. The TDS-11 engines had to be overlay loaders because of the 64kbyte address space and I see no reason to skip that because I can see this engine being used in applications which exceed a Gigabyte very easily. While at Datapoint in 83-86 I had to write my own overlay loader and overlay manager because the 8600 also had a 64kbyte address space and the Manufacturing Automated Test System I wrote (91000 lines source and still going strong when I left) exceeded the physical (2 megabytes) memory space of the machine as well. With a rich library of macrocommands available for gaming applications, the player can mod his purchased game to be something very different if he so desires by changing the macrocommand language instruction streams, in effect becoming another game author. If that looks too complicated, the player can experient with the configuration generator and the seed data files to create very different game universes, becoming a scenario designer. If the player finds that too complicated, he can just be an emperor using the game AI managers to do the grunt work, with occasional changes to their priorities. If he still does not like what he sees then he can get down and dirty and look at the data being manipulated by the managers to develop his own management rules, becoming an AI designer.

So far as my estimate of source lines goes, you will note that (if I do it at all) I plan to generate a macrocommand library that has only the basics in it. For elaborate games or simulations the designer of the game must invent his own macrocommands and use them with the existing library to generate new macrocommand language instruction files specific to his enhanced game. Seeds and other data needed by the configuration generator would probably also be tailored for new games.

I do not drink or use drugs, so my mind is not fantasizing. I have written over 5000 pages of software from 73-93. I know what I am talking about and am not just blowing smoke. Most of it has been done before, so I have two major concerns :
1) I do not want to re-invent the wheel if somebody else is already doing it.
2) I want TO GET PAID WHAT IT IS WORTH IF I DO IT.

Economics, politics, or warfare it makes no difference, because the interaction between game items is just another black box transfer function based on abilities, dependencies, and derivatives. I am an engineer and design for functionality, when possible also optimizing for time and memory, ie COST. Programmers often do things differently so they look like they are doing a lot of work. As an example of the way engineers see things differently, I can say in one line what Ayn Rand said in 800 pages :
I can do it. You can't, stupid. So PAY me what it is worth.
I suppose that if she had been paid for clarity of thought rather than by the word, she would have written a shorter "Atlas Shrugged"...........
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  #43  
Old August 2nd, 2001, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
1) I do not want to re-invent the wheel if somebody else is already doing it.

1) If somebody is working on inventing a wheel, they aren't going to advertise the fact until they have a marketable product. At least they will keep the details protected so noone can come along and "reinvent" it and get it to market faster.
quote:
2) I want TO GET PAID WHAT IT IS WORTH IF I DO IT.
It isn't worth anything until after you do it.

"If you build it, they will come" Not "Announce that you can build it, and they will come and wait while you build it, and pay you so they can wait."

Of course you could get a job at an established software development house, and be a wage slave writing code that someone else will make the money off of and get the credit for. But if you want to be the guy who gets the praise, and the jack, you are going to have to write it, and then sell it. It's called "entrepreneurialism".

Geo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 02 August 2001).]
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  #44  
Old August 2nd, 2001, 11:06 PM

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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by dogscoff:
Hmm. Nested quotes loses the comment in the quote ? IIRC it was "If you write it for the Amiga, I will buy it.



Amiga.com
ANNOUNCEMENT
Amiga concepts
I will be careful what I say - do not want to get flamed. I read other Posts but you can get the links yourself off the first one if you are interested.
1) I bought an Amiga 1000 in 86 and had very high hopes for it. As an open OS it was exactly what I wanted.
2) Things were okay for a couple years but poor marketing/ distribution/ financial management outweighed superb concept and revolutionary design.
3) They were systematically crushed in the marketplace by Windows/PC manufacturers and went bankrupt three times.
4) Their current incarnation started in Jan 2000 with a new even more flexible concept and strategy.
5) They give committed applications as of 9/14/00 and no update since then.
6) item 5) says it all, they are going down the tubes yet again, and this in spite of millions of Users who love them and thousands of developers who are using them.
7) Fighting the MS behemoth is a losing proposition until the government steps in and busts its butt the way Ma Bell was taught not to strangle other long distance carriers. Which is precisely what the govt SAYS it is trying to do, but it will probably take 10 years unless the priority and funding of that antitrust lawsuit goes WAY UP.
8) Amiga may be tolerated and allowed to survive only if they scale back and follow Apple's survival strategy - pick a niche and do NOT aggravate the monster.
9) I would be delighted to develop my software in Amiga's Digital Environment but the question is whether the company would be alive long enough to see the code written, let alone the first game sold.....

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 02 August 2001).]
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  #45  
Old August 2nd, 2001, 11:25 PM

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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
But if you want to be the guy who gets the praise, and the jack, you are going to have to write it, and then sell it. It's called "entrepreneurialism".



I could not sell a gallon of water to a person dying of thirst for one dollar, even if they had a million dollars in their pockets. I know this for a fact and accept it. I am just posting because I am bored and frustrated. I know better ways to do things and COULD do them, but I am NOT going to actually do the work then get as you say just a "wage slaves" compensation. People like those at Microsoft could be given a two year head start and $100 million to do it, and I could still come out with a better product ***working alone*** in the fourth year. No brag just fact. One good engineer = 10 outstanding programmers. As a matter of fact the same one good engineer still = 1000 programmers working as a team because they spend so much time fighting for turf and shuffling specs that they do squat about getting the product out the door....

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 02 August 2001).]
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  #46  
Old August 3rd, 2001, 12:08 AM

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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Or maybe the latest VGA Planets is already everything you had in mind for this project?



I never bought it but have seen their websites. So I do not feel qualified to comment except a little, LOL LOL LOL....
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  #47  
Old August 3rd, 2001, 12:23 AM

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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
What will kill you is making the GUI interface to all the various aspects of the game so people can play the way they expect with the mouse/trackball/whatever. Displaying all the fancy dialog boxes and adding all the 'mouse events' will take several times the code of the game engine itself, I think.


That stuff would be done by macrocommands invoking system functions through the engine interface "calldown". Depending on the relative address range of a processor, a macrocommand file can be as big as you like and have as many functions in it as needed. Just one of the functions needs to link up to the chain - the one named after the file and the same as the command name that invoked the file.

Shared data storage space is obtained off calls (through calldown) to system functions for memory at runtime, then the address of the data obtained is stored in data structures defined by the macrocommand designer. The address of the structures is placed in ADB entries and pulled out by the ones who need to share data pointed to. Do I really need to explain trivial stuff like this?
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  #48  
Old August 3rd, 2001, 12:41 AM

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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
if it weren't for Windows, or something else like it, computers would have never had the mainstream appeal that they do. Without the GUI interface your typical non-techie, the vast majority or the population, would not see the need for having a computer to begin with


How little does the latest generation know anyway ? In the beginning there was Xerox PARC, then came Apple and close on their heels Atari and Amiga. But then along came a blundering not yet behemoth Microsoft, who worked closely with IBM and Intel to CRUSH LIKE ANTS anybody who threatened the IBM PC. But little did they know that people like Dell, Compaq, and the other cloners would whip big blues butt in the home markets. This allowed the survival of alternative microprocessor manufacturers, who have steadily begun to regain the ground they lost. The monopolistic triad is finally starting to lose, and by **** it is not a DAY TOO SOON.

**** WITHOUT THOSE THREE WE WOULD BE TEN YEARS INTO THE NEXT GENERATION ALREADY ****
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  #49  
Old August 3rd, 2001, 02:33 AM

Miles Miles is offline
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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
... Back before MS Windozer plowed all the competition under I was writing relatively simple things in Turbo Pascal like usenet news readers. And my simple MS-DOS newsreader ran to 20,000 lines if you include the supporting units as well as the main code...


By any chance, was that the 'Trumpet' newsreader?

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  #50  
Old August 3rd, 2001, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business

quote:
How little does the latest generation know anyway ?

ROFL!

Oh I wish I was part of the "latest generation". To know what I know now and to have the Last twenty years back...

I hope you didn't perceive my comments as some sort of flame. What you are describing sounds like a great game. And I have no doubt in your abilities to pull it off. I am simply saying if you are waiting for someone to hand you a check up front, you'll be waiting a while.

I am not in anyway a programming whiz. In fact except for a little playing with BASIC programs as a kid on a trash-80 and Vic-20 (I'm dating myself now ) I have never had the patience to do anything close to what you are talking about.

As far as my comments regarding Windows, I am by no means an appologist for "The Bill". You missed my point I think when I said "Windows, or something like it". Gates did nothing extordinary except take advantage when he saw an opportunity. If he hadn't, someone else would have. I think the term is "Zeitgeist".

My point was simply that without making computers more attractive and accesable to the unwashed masses, you would still be tinkering around on your 8Mhz, 512K ram, 20 MB hard drive computer(Heck my first three computers didn't even have hard drives. Anybody remember casette tapes? ) writing incrededibly efficient 20K code-line programs with which to amaze your other computer nerd friends. But would never even be considering writing a program to sell to casual gamers.

I am not a programmer, but I am a history buff, and I know a little about economics. It's all supply and demand.

Geo
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