The next patch - Page 5

Zapmeister · #41 April 2nd, 2004, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Even if he loses in a 4 vs 1 match-up it hardly proves that Clams are fine as they are. If it takes four non-Clam nations to defeat one Clam nation it can hardly be called balanced.

Sure, but I'm thinking he will probably win, removing any doubt on the matter.

Stormbinder · #42 April 2nd, 2004, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:
Originally posted by sergex:
Do they want the game to be decided by whoever hordes the most abusive items?

Five bucks to the one who kills the hoarders

LOL.

Seriously KristofferO, you guys done terrific job in balancing everything in this game. Can't you please do something about clams? As you can see even in this tread many people feel that clam-haording gets way out of hand in long/medium games. And I would bet that many of those who don't feel this way just haven't meet with thier first addicitve clam-hoarder in MP game, or they would feel different.

Really simple and efective solution would be to raise cost and Con level of the clam, making it 20 water geams con 6, or perhaps 10 water and 5 or 10 nature, con 6 (it is a living thing after all, so nature gems used in construction would make good sense).

Or leave it as it is and like sergex suggested limit it to 10 per player. (it would take a little more coding than the first solution, but it can't be too dificult, right? After all you guys already have mechanisms in place to limit number of some items (Artifacts). Clams and fever fetishes could be named "Lesser Artifact" and have limit 10 or so per player.

So could you tell us what is your position about it? If you strongly feel that Clams are perfect the way they are now and should nbot be changed, than persoanlly I'll just drop this topic and will resign to living with current Version of clams, although I'll almsot certanly switch to short MP or SP Dominion2 games from now on. But at least I would stop kicking this horse if it is dead on arrival. I have no intensions on trolling on this board since I love this game dearly. Like other people here I am just trying to point out that I feel is really spoiling the end game for long/medium MP games. And like other said - I am usually the Last person to cry "nerf!", but I just can't think of anything that would fix it... ;(

[ April 02, 2004, 08:37: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Stormbinder · #43 April 2nd, 2004, 10:17 AM

[quote]Originally posted by PhilD:

quote:
Originally posted by Stormbinder:

Quote:

Originally posted by Zen:
[qb]

How long are your games? Are you playing 4-player games on the World map, or what?

I mean, your initial gem production is 5/turn. Even if it's 5 Water, this means you get to make one Clam every 2 turns, initially. For even, say, 80% of your gem income to be item-produced, assuming your sites produce, say, 10 per turn (rather small), requires 50 gem-producing items. That's 50 turns of using your natural production (assuming it's all of the right types) to turn into items (500 gems), meaning those items will have produced roughly 1200 gems by that time. That's investing your whole production into them, plus 50 turns of a mage, plus (currently) 25 commanders holding the items, which you're not likely to send on the field as random kill-me commanders - which means "lost" upkeep.

Anything faster, means your current return is smaller - because the already-produced items will have produced fewer gems.

If, during those 50 turns, none of your opponents has taken advantage of your sinking gems into slow-return investments, your map is too big. Or maybe your playgroup is too focused on this being the only viable strategy, and isn't otherwise expanding/attacking fast enough.

I am sorry but your math is completely wrong PhilD. Just few most obvious examples:

You keep refering to "initail production of 5 gems per turn". What it has to do with clams hoarding? Obviously you are going to search for avalailable water and astral sites _before_ you are going to start real clam hoarding. At can be done with water2/astral1 mages, for 2 and 3 gems, both easely available. And even few clams will will supply you with all astral gems that you'll need for Astral Probe spell, or for Archaic Records later in the game when you are swiming in astrals from your pearls.

The argument about "high upkeep cost" on commanders hoarding clams is even worse. First of all what prevents you from giving clams to your reseachers, as everybody doing in MP? Or to your bloodhunting scouts/whatever? This way you lose nothing on upkeep. But even if you do have to hire special commanders for it later on, what prevents you from hiring 20 gp scouts and give them 2 clams each? Each scout cost 1.3 gp per turn in upkeep, and it'll supply you with 2 astrals per turn. Clearly 1.3 gp is nothing comparable to 2 astrals every turn, so it shouldn't be even seriously considered when deciding if clams are unbalanced.

And I am not even talking about sites bonuses to forging, or having few dwarven hammers used to produce clams every turn. Yes, hammer is not cheap, being 20 earth gems, but it's a long time investment. By themself Hammers are totally fine and cool itme, but when applied to already severely unbalanced 10water gems clams, making them 7 water gems each...

Sure, there is no quarantee that you'll find site with bonus production, but they are not _that_ rare, and they means the return of investent on _all_ your calms is 8 turns now instead of 10, since obviously you are going produce all your clams only on that site now for 8 water gems each. And that's even without Dwarven hammers.

More arguments could be writen, but I think that should be enough.

[ April 02, 2004, 08:25: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Jasper · #44 April 2nd, 2004, 10:26 AM

IMHO you have not been at all convincing that Clams are broken.

You argument is essentially flawed, in that it assumes that the alternative to massive investment in clams is to do nothing with your water gems and forging mages, and that researching something other than Construction 4 early on has no value.

The true alternative is to use your income aggresively, and seize income and gem sources from your opponents. This gains you income immediately, and deprives them of it as well.

Needing 10 turns to recoup just your initial investment is pretty steep, and if you count oppurtunity cost IMHO it takes more like 15 turns before you begin to see returns. In games I've played half the players are typically out of the running by turn 30... I'd rather use my gems to try to stay in the surviving half, rather than invest them and pray I survive to the end game.

Stormbinder · #45 April 2nd, 2004, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:
IMHO you have not been at all convincing that Clams are broken.

You argument is essentially flawed, in that it assumes that the alternative to massive investment in clams is to do nothing with your water gems and forging mages, and that researching something other than Construction 4 early on has no value.

The true alternative is to use your income aggresively, and seize income and gem sources from your opponents. This gains you income immediately, and deprives them of it as well.

Needing 10 turns to recoup just your initial investment is pretty steep, and if you count oppurtunity cost IMHO it takes more like 15 turns before you begin to see returns. In games I've played half the players are typically out of the running by turn 30... I'd rather use my gems to try to stay in the surviving half, rather than invest them and pray I survive to the end game.

If you have read my Posts carefully you must have noticed that I was refering to medium/long games- I've said it several times. Obviously clams are not an issue if the game is finished or almost fininshed by turn 30 or so.

That also means that you have no high-level spells, no high level summons in your games, et cetera. There is nothing wrong with such games if it fits your playstyle, it's just entirely different type of game from the ones than me and Graeme, Sergex, Zapmaeser and others were refering to.

What I don't understand is this - why some people are so opposed to it? If clam hoarding is not an issue according to them, than it shouldn't matter to them much if requirements for the clams would raise a little? One of the person (no names here, but he haven't posted on this thread yet

) who is a great player and whom I highly respect as a Dom2 opponent was strongly opposed increasing cost or reqs for Clams - and that despite the fact that he is notorious clam hoarder. (actually more likely not "despite" but "because" )

Now I am not suggesting that everybody who is against Clam-changes is the secret addicted clam hoarder.

That would be way too much and I am not a conspiracy freak.

But I know from experience that at least some of the most vocal ones are in fact using massive clam-haarding strategy again and again to great success, and they are objecting to any changes to Clams so strongly excactly because it would kill their favorite "I-Won" tactic.

[ April 02, 2004, 08:59: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Peter Ebbesen · #46 April 2nd, 2004, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It takes about 50 turns to go from a 5 astral income with no water to having 100 clams, assuming that absolutely no other site searching is done.

No, it does not.... It takes 69 rounds

In 50 rounds you reach a mere 40 clams according to my astal calculator

(or 87 if you assume a 25% forge bonus).

The greatest limitations on astral clam abuse remain the need for sufficient water 2 mages and not using your gems for other purposes.

Personally, I think the other players have failed in a major way if one nation is able to survive without using a significant fraction of its gems each round but perhaps that is just me.

Anyhow, I must certainly agree with Graeme Dice that it is potentially abusive in a major way in long term games. Just look at this output from the astral calculator using a 25% forge bonus and a base income of 5 astral and nothing else whatsoever, if you are in doubt:

[Actually, there is a bug in the following, as it only costs 14 astral per clam due to the water price being rounded to 7 rather than 7.5 per clam]

code:

Astral Calculator

Calculating Astral Clam abuse based on 5 base astal income and a

25 forge bonus (15 astral per clam) wasting 0 percent of surplus per turn



   0: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=   5 -->  Produced    0 clams

   1: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=  10 -->  Produced    0 clams

   2: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    1 clams

   3: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=   5 -->  Produced    0 clams

   4: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   0  Store=  11 -->  Produced    0 clams

   5: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   0  Store=  17 -->  Produced    1 clams

   6: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   0  Store=   8 -->  Produced    0 clams

   7: Clams=   2  Income=   7  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    1 clams

   8: Clams=   2  Income=   7  Waste=   0  Store=   7 -->  Produced    0 clams

   9: Clams=   3  Income=   8  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    1 clams

  10: Clams=   3  Income=   8  Waste=   0  Store=   8 -->  Produced    0 clams

  11: Clams=   4  Income=   9  Waste=   0  Store=  17 -->  Produced    1 clams

  12: Clams=   4  Income=   9  Waste=   0  Store=  11 -->  Produced    0 clams

  13: Clams=   5  Income=  10  Waste=   0  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  14: Clams=   5  Income=  10  Waste=   0  Store=  16 -->  Produced    1 clams

  15: Clams=   6  Income=  11  Waste=   0  Store=  12 -->  Produced    0 clams

  16: Clams=   7  Income=  12  Waste=   0  Store=  24 -->  Produced    1 clams

  17: Clams=   7  Income=  12  Waste=   0  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  18: Clams=   8  Income=  13  Waste=   0  Store=  19 -->  Produced    1 clams

  19: Clams=   9  Income=  14  Waste=   0  Store=  18 -->  Produced    1 clams

  20: Clams=  10  Income=  15  Waste=   0  Store=  18 -->  Produced    1 clams

  21: Clams=  11  Income=  16  Waste=   0  Store=  19 -->  Produced    1 clams

  22: Clams=  12  Income=  17  Waste=   0  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  23: Clams=  13  Income=  18  Waste=   0  Store=  24 -->  Produced    1 clams

  24: Clams=  14  Income=  19  Waste=   0  Store=  28 -->  Produced    1 clams

  25: Clams=  15  Income=  20  Waste=   0  Store=  33 -->  Produced    2 clams

  26: Clams=  16  Income=  21  Waste=   0  Store=  24 -->  Produced    1 clams

  27: Clams=  18  Income=  23  Waste=   0  Store=  32 -->  Produced    2 clams

  28: Clams=  19  Income=  24  Waste=   0  Store=  26 -->  Produced    1 clams

  29: Clams=  21  Income=  26  Waste=   0  Store=  37 -->  Produced    2 clams

  30: Clams=  22  Income=  27  Waste=   0  Store=  34 -->  Produced    2 clams

  31: Clams=  24  Income=  29  Waste=   0  Store=  33 -->  Produced    2 clams

  32: Clams=  26  Income=  31  Waste=   0  Store=  34 -->  Produced    2 clams

  33: Clams=  28  Income=  33  Waste=   0  Store=  37 -->  Produced    2 clams

  34: Clams=  30  Income=  35  Waste=   0  Store=  42 -->  Produced    2 clams

  35: Clams=  32  Income=  37  Waste=   0  Store=  49 -->  Produced    3 clams

  36: Clams=  34  Income=  39  Waste=   0  Store=  43 -->  Produced    2 clams

  37: Clams=  37  Income=  42  Waste=   0  Store=  55 -->  Produced    3 clams

  38: Clams=  39  Income=  44  Waste=   0  Store=  54 -->  Produced    3 clams

  39: Clams=  42  Income=  47  Waste=   0  Store=  56 -->  Produced    3 clams

  40: Clams=  45  Income=  50  Waste=   0  Store=  61 -->  Produced    4 clams

  41: Clams=  48  Income=  53  Waste=   0  Store=  54 -->  Produced    3 clams

  42: Clams=  52  Income=  57  Waste=   0  Store=  66 -->  Produced    4 clams

  43: Clams=  55  Income=  60  Waste=   0  Store=  66 -->  Produced    4 clams

  44: Clams=  59  Income=  64  Waste=   0  Store=  70 -->  Produced    4 clams

  45: Clams=  63  Income=  68  Waste=   0  Store=  78 -->  Produced    5 clams

  46: Clams=  67  Income=  72  Waste=   0  Store=  75 -->  Produced    5 clams

  47: Clams=  72  Income=  77  Waste=   0  Store=  77 -->  Produced    5 clams

  48: Clams=  77  Income=  82  Waste=   0  Store=  84 -->  Produced    5 clams

  49: Clams=  82  Income=  87  Waste=   0  Store=  96 -->  Produced    6 clams

  50: Clams=  87  Income=  92  Waste=   0  Store=  98 -->  Produced    6 clams

  51: Clams=  93  Income=  98  Waste=   0  Store= 106 -->  Produced    7 clams

  52: Clams=  99  Income= 104  Waste=   0  Store= 105 -->  Produced    7 clams

  53: Clams= 106  Income= 111  Waste=   0  Store= 111 -->  Produced    7 clams

  54: Clams= 113  Income= 118  Waste=   0  Store= 124 -->  Produced    8 clams

  55: Clams= 120  Income= 125  Waste=   0  Store= 129 -->  Produced    8 clams

  56: Clams= 128  Income= 133  Waste=   0  Store= 142 -->  Produced    9 clams

  57: Clams= 136  Income= 141  Waste=   0  Store= 148 -->  Produced    9 clams

  58: Clams= 145  Income= 150  Waste=   0  Store= 163 -->  Produced   10 clams

  59: Clams= 154  Income= 159  Waste=   0  Store= 172 -->  Produced   11 clams

  60: Clams= 164  Income= 169  Waste=   0  Store= 176 -->  Produced   11 clams

  61: Clams= 175  Income= 180  Waste=   0  Store= 191 -->  Produced   12 clams

  62: Clams= 186  Income= 191  Waste=   0  Store= 202 -->  Produced   13 clams

  63: Clams= 198  Income= 203  Waste=   0  Store= 210 -->  Produced   14 clams

  64: Clams= 211  Income= 216  Waste=   0  Store= 216 -->  Produced   14 clams

  65: Clams= 225  Income= 230  Waste=   0  Store= 236 -->  Produced   15 clams

  66: Clams= 239  Income= 244  Waste=   0  Store= 255 -->  Produced   17 clams

  67: Clams= 254  Income= 259  Waste=   0  Store= 259 -->  Produced   17 clams

  68: Clams= 271  Income= 276  Waste=   0  Store= 280 -->  Produced   18 clams

  69: Clams= 288  Income= 293  Waste=   0  Store= 303 -->  Produced   20 clams

  70: Clams= 306  Income= 311  Waste=   0  Store= 314 -->  Produced   20 clams

  71: Clams= 326  Income= 331  Waste=   0  Store= 345 -->  Produced   23 clams

  72: Clams= 346  Income= 351  Waste=   0  Store= 351 -->  Produced   23 clams

  73: Clams= 369  Income= 374  Waste=   0  Store= 380 -->  Produced   25 clams

  74: Clams= 392  Income= 397  Waste=   0  Store= 402 -->  Produced   26 clams

  75: Clams= 417  Income= 422  Waste=   0  Store= 434 -->  Produced   28 clams

  76: Clams= 443  Income= 448  Waste=   0  Store= 462 -->  Produced   30 clams

  77: Clams= 471  Income= 476  Waste=   0  Store= 488 -->  Produced   32 clams

  78: Clams= 501  Income= 506  Waste=   0  Store= 514 -->  Produced   34 clams

  79: Clams= 533  Income= 538  Waste=   0  Store= 542 -->  Produced   36 clams

  80: Clams= 567  Income= 572  Waste=   0  Store= 574 -->  Produced   38 clams

  81: Clams= 603  Income= 608  Waste=   0  Store= 612 -->  Produced   40 clams

  82: Clams= 641  Income= 646  Waste=   0  Store= 658 -->  Produced   43 clams

  83: Clams= 681  Income= 686  Waste=   0  Store= 699 -->  Produced   46 clams

  84: Clams= 724  Income= 729  Waste=   0  Store= 738 -->  Produced   49 clams

  85: Clams= 770  Income= 775  Waste=   0  Store= 778 -->  Produced   51 clams

  86: Clams= 819  Income= 824  Waste=   0  Store= 837 -->  Produced   55 clams

  87: Clams= 870  Income= 875  Waste=   0  Store= 887 -->  Produced   59 clams

  88: Clams= 925  Income= 930  Waste=   0  Store= 932 -->  Produced   62 clams

  89: Clams= 984  Income= 989  Waste=   0  Store= 991 -->  Produced   66 clams

  90: Clams=1046  Income=1051  Waste=   0  Store=1052 -->  Produced   70 clams

  91: Clams=1112  Income=1117  Waste=   0  Store=1119 -->  Produced   74 clams

  92: Clams=1182  Income=1187  Waste=   0  Store=1196 -->  Produced   79 clams

  93: Clams=1256  Income=1261  Waste=   0  Store=1272 -->  Produced   84 clams

  94: Clams=1335  Income=1340  Waste=   0  Store=1352 -->  Produced   90 clams

  95: Clams=1419  Income=1424  Waste=   0  Store=1426 -->  Produced   95 clams

  96: Clams=1509  Income=1514  Waste=   0  Store=1515 -->  Produced  101 clams

  97: Clams=1604  Income=1609  Waste=   0  Store=1609 -->  Produced  107 clams

  98: Clams=1705  Income=1710  Waste=   0  Store=1714 -->  Produced  114 clams

  99: Clams=1812  Income=1817  Waste=   0  Store=1821 -->  Produced  121 clams

 100: Clams=1926  Income=1931  Waste=   0  Store=1937 -->  Produced  129 clams

That was scary!

Let us make it less so. Assuming that 50% of all astral gems stored above those needed to make a single clam are "wasted" on other types of magic and that no Dwarven hammers whatsoever are made (utopian, but let us assume it for a moment), we get (still based on only the starting income and nothing else)

code:

Astral Calculator

Calculating Astral Clam abuse based on 5 base astal income and a

0 forge bonus (20 astral per clam) wasting 50 percent of surplus per turn



   0: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=   5 -->  Produced    0 clams

   1: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=  10 -->  Produced    0 clams

   2: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    0 clams

   3: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=  20 -->  Produced    1 clams

   4: Clams=   0  Income=   5  Waste=   0  Store=   5 -->  Produced    0 clams

   5: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   0  Store=  11 -->  Produced    0 clams

   6: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   0  Store=  17 -->  Produced    0 clams

   7: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   1  Store=  22 -->  Produced    1 clams

   8: Clams=   1  Income=   6  Waste=   0  Store=   8 -->  Produced    0 clams

   9: Clams=   2  Income=   7  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    0 clams

  10: Clams=   2  Income=   7  Waste=   1  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  11: Clams=   2  Income=   7  Waste=   0  Store=   8 -->  Produced    0 clams

  12: Clams=   3  Income=   8  Waste=   0  Store=  16 -->  Produced    0 clams

  13: Clams=   3  Income=   8  Waste=   2  Store=  22 -->  Produced    1 clams

  14: Clams=   3  Income=   8  Waste=   0  Store=  10 -->  Produced    0 clams

  15: Clams=   4  Income=   9  Waste=   0  Store=  19 -->  Produced    0 clams

  16: Clams=   4  Income=   9  Waste=   4  Store=  24 -->  Produced    1 clams

  17: Clams=   4  Income=   9  Waste=   0  Store=  13 -->  Produced    0 clams

  18: Clams=   5  Income=  10  Waste=   1  Store=  22 -->  Produced    1 clams

  19: Clams=   5  Income=  10  Waste=   0  Store=  12 -->  Produced    0 clams

  20: Clams=   6  Income=  11  Waste=   1  Store=  22 -->  Produced    1 clams

  21: Clams=   6  Income=  11  Waste=   0  Store=  13 -->  Produced    0 clams

  22: Clams=   7  Income=  12  Waste=   2  Store=  23 -->  Produced    1 clams

  23: Clams=   7  Income=  12  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    0 clams

  24: Clams=   8  Income=  13  Waste=   4  Store=  24 -->  Produced    1 clams

  25: Clams=   8  Income=  13  Waste=   0  Store=  17 -->  Produced    0 clams

  26: Clams=   9  Income=  14  Waste=   5  Store=  26 -->  Produced    1 clams

  27: Clams=   9  Income=  14  Waste=   0  Store=  20 -->  Produced    1 clams

  28: Clams=  10  Income=  15  Waste=   0  Store=  15 -->  Produced    0 clams

  29: Clams=  11  Income=  16  Waste=   5  Store=  26 -->  Produced    1 clams

  30: Clams=  11  Income=  16  Waste=   1  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  31: Clams=  12  Income=  17  Waste=   0  Store=  18 -->  Produced    0 clams

  32: Clams=  13  Income=  18  Waste=   8  Store=  28 -->  Produced    1 clams

  33: Clams=  13  Income=  18  Waste=   3  Store=  23 -->  Produced    1 clams

  34: Clams=  14  Income=  19  Waste=   1  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  35: Clams=  15  Income=  20  Waste=   0  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  36: Clams=  16  Income=  21  Waste=   1  Store=  21 -->  Produced    1 clams

  37: Clams=  17  Income=  22  Waste=   1  Store=  22 -->  Produced    1 clams

  38: Clams=  18  Income=  23  Waste=   2  Store=  23 -->  Produced    1 clams

  39: Clams=  19  Income=  24  Waste=   3  Store=  24 -->  Produced    1 clams

  40: Clams=  20  Income=  25  Waste=   4  Store=  25 -->  Produced    1 clams

  41: Clams=  21  Income=  26  Waste=   5  Store=  26 -->  Produced    1 clams

  42: Clams=  22  Income=  27  Waste=   6  Store=  27 -->  Produced    1 clams

  43: Clams=  23  Income=  28  Waste=   7  Store=  28 -->  Produced    1 clams

  44: Clams=  24  Income=  29  Waste=   8  Store=  29 -->  Produced    1 clams

  45: Clams=  25  Income=  30  Waste=   9  Store=  30 -->  Produced    1 clams

  46: Clams=  26  Income=  31  Waste=  10  Store=  31 -->  Produced    1 clams

  47: Clams=  27  Income=  32  Waste=  11  Store=  32 -->  Produced    1 clams

  48: Clams=  28  Income=  33  Waste=  12  Store=  33 -->  Produced    1 clams

  49: Clams=  29  Income=  34  Waste=  13  Store=  34 -->  Produced    1 clams

  50: Clams=  30  Income=  35  Waste=  14  Store=  35 -->  Produced    1 clams

  51: Clams=  31  Income=  36  Waste=  15  Store=  36 -->  Produced    1 clams

  52: Clams=  32  Income=  37  Waste=  16  Store=  37 -->  Produced    1 clams

  53: Clams=  33  Income=  38  Waste=  17  Store=  38 -->  Produced    1 clams

  54: Clams=  34  Income=  39  Waste=  18  Store=  39 -->  Produced    1 clams

  55: Clams=  35  Income=  40  Waste=  19  Store=  40 -->  Produced    2 clams

  56: Clams=  36  Income=  41  Waste=  10  Store=  31 -->  Produced    1 clams

  57: Clams=  38  Income=  43  Waste=  17  Store=  37 -->  Produced    1 clams

  58: Clams=  39  Income=  44  Waste=  20  Store=  41 -->  Produced    2 clams

  59: Clams=  40  Income=  45  Waste=  13  Store=  33 -->  Produced    1 clams

  60: Clams=  42  Income=  47  Waste=  20  Store=  40 -->  Produced    2 clams

  61: Clams=  43  Income=  48  Waste=  14  Store=  34 -->  Produced    1 clams

  62: Clams=  45  Income=  50  Waste=  22  Store=  42 -->  Produced    2 clams

  63: Clams=  46  Income=  51  Waste=  16  Store=  37 -->  Produced    1 clams

  64: Clams=  48  Income=  53  Waste=  25  Store=  45 -->  Produced    2 clams

  65: Clams=  49  Income=  54  Waste=  19  Store=  40 -->  Produced    2 clams

  66: Clams=  51  Income=  56  Waste=  18  Store=  38 -->  Produced    1 clams

  67: Clams=  53  Income=  58  Waste=  28  Store=  48 -->  Produced    2 clams

  68: Clams=  54  Income=  59  Waste=  23  Store=  44 -->  Produced    2 clams

  69: Clams=  56  Income=  61  Waste=  22  Store=  43 -->  Produced    2 clams

  70: Clams=  58  Income=  63  Waste=  23  Store=  43 -->  Produced    2 clams

  71: Clams=  60  Income=  65  Waste=  24  Store=  44 -->  Produced    2 clams

  72: Clams=  62  Income=  67  Waste=  25  Store=  46 -->  Produced    2 clams

  73: Clams=  64  Income=  69  Waste=  27  Store=  48 -->  Produced    2 clams

  74: Clams=  66  Income=  71  Waste=  29  Store=  50 -->  Produced    2 clams

  75: Clams=  68  Income=  73  Waste=  31  Store=  52 -->  Produced    2 clams

  76: Clams=  70  Income=  75  Waste=  33  Store=  54 -->  Produced    2 clams

  77: Clams=  72  Income=  77  Waste=  35  Store=  56 -->  Produced    2 clams

  78: Clams=  74  Income=  79  Waste=  37  Store=  58 -->  Produced    2 clams

  79: Clams=  76  Income=  81  Waste=  39  Store=  60 -->  Produced    3 clams

  80: Clams=  78  Income=  83  Waste=  31  Store=  52 -->  Produced    2 clams

  81: Clams=  81  Income=  86  Waste=  39  Store=  59 -->  Produced    2 clams

  82: Clams=  83  Income=  88  Waste=  43  Store=  64 -->  Produced    3 clams

  83: Clams=  85  Income=  90  Waste=  37  Store=  57 -->  Produced    2 clams

  84: Clams=  88  Income=  93  Waste=  45  Store=  65 -->  Produced    3 clams

  85: Clams=  90  Income=  95  Waste=  40  Store=  60 -->  Produced    3 clams

  86: Clams=  93  Income=  98  Waste=  39  Store=  59 -->  Produced    2 clams

  87: Clams=  96  Income= 101  Waste=  50  Store=  70 -->  Produced    3 clams

  88: Clams=  98  Income= 103  Waste=  46  Store=  67 -->  Produced    3 clams

  89: Clams= 101  Income= 106  Waste=  46  Store=  67 -->  Produced    3 clams

  90: Clams= 104  Income= 109  Waste=  48  Store=  68 -->  Produced    3 clams

  91: Clams= 107  Income= 112  Waste=  50  Store=  70 -->  Produced    3 clams

  92: Clams= 110  Income= 115  Waste=  52  Store=  73 -->  Produced    3 clams

  93: Clams= 113  Income= 118  Waste=  55  Store=  76 -->  Produced    3 clams

  94: Clams= 116  Income= 121  Waste=  58  Store=  79 -->  Produced    3 clams

  95: Clams= 119  Income= 124  Waste=  61  Store=  82 -->  Produced    4 clams

  96: Clams= 122  Income= 127  Waste=  54  Store=  75 -->  Produced    3 clams

  97: Clams= 126  Income= 131  Waste=  63  Store=  83 -->  Produced    4 clams

  98: Clams= 129  Income= 134  Waste=  58  Store=  79 -->  Produced    3 clams

  99: Clams= 133  Income= 138  Waste=  68  Store=  89 -->  Produced    4 clams

 100: Clams= 136  Income= 141  Waste=  65  Store=  85 -->  Produced    4 clams

As far as I am concerned, that just means that nations with easy access to both water and astral magic must be hammered frequently to force them to use their astral for other things than astral abuse - for the numbers are potentially scary.

[ April 02, 2004, 10:50: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Stormbinder · #47 April 2nd, 2004, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It takes about 50 turns to go from a 5 astral income with no water to having 100 clams, assuming that absolutely no other site searching is done.

No, it does not.... It takes 69 rounds In 50 rounds you reach a mere 40 clams according to my astal calculator (or 87 if you assume a 25% forge bonus).

/tables skiped/

...

I'll be damned! Thanks Peter. I knew it was scary, but I didn't realize it was _that_ scary. ;(

[ April 02, 2004, 11:04: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

magnate · #48 April 2nd, 2004, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:
Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:
Originally posted by magnate:
One thing I'd like to see in the next patch is a 2nd visit to the races screen, after the map is chosen. It shouldn't be too hard to do, and you don't even have to allow any changes on this 2nd visit (open to debate but whatever), but just show us what changes the map selection has made to the race selections. This would vastly simplify the use of user-made maps and scenarios, especially for SP. Good for MP too - maybe you could choose a different race if you really didn't like the map they chose ....

Another good alternative to this, and easier to program, would be to have map selection come -before- race selection. That way you know how many provinces, how much water, whether there are a recommended number of races, restrictions on which races/nations that are played, etc.

I really cant see this. I tend to create a new game with more of an idea of what nation I want to play than with what map I want to play on. To choose from ALL the maps and then find out that my nation isnt a choice seems less desireable than to choose the nation then find out that all the maps are not available.

Its not that hard anyway to just hit ESC and back up to make a change the way it is now.

Quote:

An option on the race selection screen to randomize which non-human-controlled races are in the game would be rather nice also, especially with graphs turned off. Let it be a surprise as you come across the nations in the game.

I guess this could be interesting but at the moment thats a feature of the map controls. I generate maps daily on my site that randomize the AI opponents.

Cainehill - thanks for that - I suggested it a while ago, before I found this thread (which has been totally dominated by a single issue), but I changed my suggestion in order to appease those, like Gandalf, who want to choose their race first. This way it's minimal change to the status quo.

Gandalf - you seem a little dismissive of the alternative view. It *IS* painful to Esc back up to the races screen, check/change all the selections and then reselect the map. It's tedious and, if the map has specific settings which override your choices, frustrating. Having a second visit to the races screen after choosing the map would simply and precisely alleviate this problem. It would cost you one single extra click on "Ok".

At the moment there is no alternative but to know quite a lot about the map you want to play before you choose the races (ie. how much water, etc.). It would make the game more user-friendly if you could browse the maps before *finalising* the race selections. I don't mind a trip to the races screen first as well.

CC

Peter Ebbesen · #49 April 2nd, 2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wendigo:

quote:
20: Clams= 10 Income= 15 Waste= 0 Store= 18 --> Produced 1 clams

I am with Jasper. I am far from impressed by the above numbers, and those are a 'best possible' scenario for an astral power: Construction research for clam forging + 1 dwarven hammer already forged available both from turn3, which is basically impossible.

Well, that is going too far.

Remember that THAT projection was based on ONLY using a starting income of 5 gems without using any gems gained through finding water or astral sites - which is a quite unlikely scenario; it just happens to be a scenario that is easy to calculate the results of. In other words, it was not the "best possible" scenario, it was the "best possible using only the gem income from your own capital" - which is a very different matter.

Anyone who goes for a dedicated clam of pearls strategy is very likely to get better than 5 astral and 0 water/round from ordinary sources within a dozen rounds or so, which kickstarts the process.

[ April 02, 2004, 14:36: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Graeme Dice · #50 April 2nd, 2004, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Even if it was, forfeiting the gem income from 20 turns (100 gems!) to get a +10 gem income is far from impressive. On standard settings I am pretty sure I could get a better income with half the investment by just casting a few search spells.

Who says you won't cast search spells? You must remember that water magic is essentially useless other than for quickness, so it's not a particularly big loss to convert all your water gems to astral ones. It does only take about 35 turns to get to 100 clams once you have a decent income in other gems, as that's exactly what I've done with R'Lyeh.

Quote:

Even so, it's disputable that a clam strategy would be a better investment than an early casting of Voice of Tiamat on every sea: Sacrifice 10 gems for a 1 gem income, or 8 gems for a 2+ income?

No reason you can't do both. But once you've searched all your water provinces, there's no reason not to make clams.