The Bogarus Problem

[chrispedersen]

Edi said:
Bogarus can recruit absolute hordes of chaff and there is a quality all of its own to a great quantity of their archers, especially if they manage to snag some good indies soon.

Some of the problems with Bogarus are that they have no access to Earth, Water or Nature magic, so those should be covered by the pretender.

huh? Doesn't Bogus get access to alchemists - which as I recall are E1.

Besides, I'd rather look at it as they DO get access to Astral, Death, and Blood - which are the three essentials IMO>

[Renojustin]

K said:

True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.

So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.

2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.

3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.

4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.

[JimMorrison]

That's anecdotal - a single case with not even detailed analysis of the position. I mean I am sure at the time you didn't sit down and think through his build, and check out every one of his provinces - nor interview the populace of his provinces to discover if he had to face any particularly nasty indies, or had barbarians attack his castle, or god knows what constitutes "didn't make any mistakes", which is a hell of a claim.

I must say I find it amusing that it's scoffed at to use diplomacy as your early game strat anyways. Supposing it is one of your best options as Bogarus, so? It's really not THAT often that you start next to an instant rusher, that's for sure. Even when you do, to be on someone's capital so soon, often means that person mobilized against the first person that their scouts found - at most the second. So that person is not looking for Bogarus, they're just looking for a province with a castle in it, and there's a good chance they didn't even see your awake pretender if you have one - if you're expanding the other direction.

I really don't think it's fair, until there is statistical evidence (like a Bogarus win using *any* strat), for anyone to imply their strat is competitive, and another is not.

[Renojustin]

-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.

-People don't have to use diplomacy with or against Bogarus, because the best and most sure way to power is by conquering the easy target. Which Bogarus certainly is in early game, especially without an awake pretender.

[chrispedersen]

K said:

I'd invite you to run a few tests using 30 PD + starting army + 20 archers and some Standard units + two H3 Eparchs scripted with Smite. They do a perfectly fine job killing 20 dual-Blessed + Prophet + starting army attackers (no losses in my tests).

the problem is starting armies with rare exceptions are not at all what you will usually be facing.


As I recall.. voi archers are significantly worse than standard archers.. Resource 5, morale 8?

[K]

Renojustin said:

So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.

Maybe you can and maybe you can't. In the early game an SC pretender can be killed by something as mundane as some of the readily available LA crossbowmen or calvary set to Attack or Fire Large Monsters. Taking indies is a whole different proposition from taking enemy provinces.

Check out some of the LA guides floating around. Baalz has a nice LA Atlantis guide that details easy ways to kill SCs using only Atlantis's base troops, and even weaker nations like Patala can kill an SC with minimal research and a single mage casting Gifts from Heaven.

In the short term, holding provinces is not a big deal. I recently killed a skilled opponent by letting him take 80% of my provinces while I made a determined attack towards his capital. Once I took it and stopped his production of national troops, retaking my lost provinces was not even an issue.

SCs are good at taking provinces in the short term, and terrible at holding them in the long term.

Renojustin said:
2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.

I've noted several times that adding smiters to an army vastly increases their ability to take Indies. I don't know what your standards are, but I find that making an army that can take a province a turn every other turn is perfectly fine by most people's standards.

Renojustin said:
3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.

Actually, an Awake SC tells me "wow, this guy has no resources or gold or research since it's tied into building up an early game SC. I should kill him now when he's weak before he gets good equipment."

Renojustin said:
4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.

Well, not making mistakes is not the same as having a good strategy. A player more experienced with Bogarus may have been able to do more with it.

For example, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did he use Smiters in his armies?

2. Were his Voi Archers in the front of the battlefield or in the middle/back?

3. Did he keep at least five Styags with his army (these are the non-commanders with Standards)?

4. Did he force you to meet him in battlefields with his Province Defense built up?

5. Did he have good Production scales, and did he use low resource units like the various Voi or the high resource Peshtsi?

And some overall strategy questions:

6. Did he concentrate his forces, or did he meet you in several battles?

7. Did he buy and use mercenaries?

8. Did he ever make a viable rush to your capital, or did he try to retake his lost provinces?

9. What were his chances of events(Order and Luck scales), and is there evidence that he had any bad events strike in the first few turns?

10. Could he have had very strong indies near his capital, thus slowing his expansion?



I know that if he had mages and some magic as you said, then he probably didn't have any smiters. If he made that choice, then he was probably unfamiliar with Bogarus's other strengths. I can see how easily someone might be seduced by the long-term power of good research and they would avoid the short-term power of Smiters in the early game.

I don't expect or want any answers to these questions, but I want you to mull them over for your own edification. The issue is more complex than what you learned in one game with a single Bogarus player.

[Kuritza]

I've won a VP MP game with Bogarus, in Russian community though. With an awake Wyrm. I dont think Bogarus is any good without an SC God.
Sloth is, in my opinion, completely out of question, your strength is in numbers. But Bogarus can afford drain 2 relatively easily (without CB mod).
Voi archers are indeed worse that standart archers. But their morale is mostly irrelevant, their precision and damage can be buffed, so in the end sheer numbers can outweigh everything (if you can solve starvation issues...)
Bogarus spearman are quite good as arrow fodder.
I am not sure if Malaya Druzhina is fixed in the last version of CB. I remember they lost lances some time ago, getting composite bow instead (and becoming quite crappy).
Bogarus can summon Arch Devils, but Ice Devils make more sense with cold 2 scale (and probably strong dominion). If you can think of some way to summon or recruit a water mage, or if your pretender has some water, empower him with blood and summon Ice Devils.

Renojustin said:I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense.

Well, you were LA Rlyeh, and that DOES count...
And Bogarus had some weird pretender, like Vampire queen with just blood and death if my memory serves me right. In other words, not a SC pretender.

[Ming]

K,

Thank you for your invitation of considering Bogarus’ smiters. It is something that is easy to overlook.

However, I did consider the possibility of using eparch for Bogarus extensively. After all, I advocated the use of bishop fish’s smiting ability in the early game for MA Oceania. So using smiters is something that I would definitely take into account. There are two major differences between the two cases:

First, everybody is map move one underwater, so bishop fish’s map move of one is not a handicap. Eparch’s map move of one is.

Second (and more important), battlemagic is much less important underwater (i.e. for MA Oceania) while one of Bogarus’ biggest advantage over other nations is its fast research and therefore earlier access to battlemagic. Without its speed, its research is only average – bear in mind starets are not particularly cost effective since it is old and not sacred. Using eparch would be giving up on Bogarus’ one major advantage over others. That is not to say that eparchs shouldn’t be used in an emergency - just that it should be avoided if possible.

The fact that eparch cost 175 gold while bishop fish cost only 120 also matters on the margin.

IMHO, an awake pretender pays for itself by enabling Bogarus to expand much faster, the additional combat value in defense of a rush is just icing on the cake. An awake pretender solves Bogarus' problem of weak starting troops, and poor national troops in general, in one stroke. Please bear in mind that part of the cost of an effective awake pretender is high dominion – something that Bogarus need anyway to take advantage of its cold scale and cold resistant troops. Also bear in mind that for Bogarus the pretender will get some equipment by turn 6 or 7 by researching construction 2 first – unlike the use of eparch, researching construction 2 first provides air quills, and so does not slow research in the long run.

Finally, against invaders an awake pretender would be scripting air shield, hold, hold, (hold) attack rear instead of fighting in the front on turn one.

Let me know if you still disagree.

[K]

Ming said:
K,

Thank you for your invitation of considering Bogarus’ smiters. It is something that is easy to overlook.

However, I did consider the possibility of using eparch for Bogarus extensively. After all, I advocated the use of bishop fish’s smiting ability in the early game for MA Oceania. So using smiters is something that I would definitely take into account. There are two major differences between the two cases:

First, everybody is map move one underwater, so bishop fish’s map move of one is not a handicap. Eparch’s map move of one is.

Second (and more important), battlemagic is much less important underwater (i.e. for MA Oceania) while one of Bogarus’ biggest advantage over other nations is its fast research and therefore earlier access to battlemagic. Without its speed, its research is only average – bear in mind starets are not particularly cost effective since it is old and not sacred. Using eparch would be giving up on Bogarus’ one major advantage over others. That is not to say that eparchs shouldn’t be used in an emergency - just that it should be avoided if possible.

The fact that eparch cost 175 gold while bishop fish cost only 120 also matters on the margin.

IMHO, an awake pretender pays for itself by enabling Bogarus to expand much faster, the additional combat value in defense of a rush is just icing on the cake. An awake pretender solves Bogarus' problem of weak starting troops, and poor national troops in general, in one stroke. Please bear in mind that part of the cost of an effective awake pretender is high dominion – something that Bogarus need anyway to take advantage of its cold scale and cold resistant troops. Also bear in mind that for Bogarus the pretender will get some equipment by turn 6 or 7 by researching construction 2 first – unlike the use of eparch, researching construction 2 first provides air quills, and so does not slow research in the long run.

Finally, against invaders an awake pretender would be scripting air shield, hold, hold, (hold) attack rear instead of fighting in the front on turn one.

Let me know if you still disagree.

I do.

First, the Eparch can get you the early expansion. Map move 1 is perfect for taking a province a turn.

Then you move over to your Starets. Even if you wasted the first six turns making Eparchs, the next six turns of Starets will more than recover any lost ground on research.

Then you send your Eparchs into position for your first war. By then you have a second castle pumping out Masters of Names for great research, and when you meet your enemies around turn 17 or 19 you teleport in with powerful magic backing you up and if you were smart you now have those Eparch on Carpets of Flying with something interesting as guard.

And if a war happens before that, Eparchs on Smite duty are going to serve you better than a poorly equipped SC god and bad scales.

Here's another free lesson from a semi-competent player: you need more than one strategy. You need several that you cycle in and out as your circumstances change. Be flexible, and don't sacrifice anything you don't have to.

[JimMorrison]

Renojustin said:
-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.

Because as of today, 100% of awake SCs, and 100% of imprisoned scales/magic pretenders have met with failure in MP games.

Until you can substantiate a particular strategy as being victorious (sorry Kuritza, not my intent to be rude), then there all of our evidence leads to loss of the game so far. 100% results are not anecdotal.