Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I like Zen, even if he does back the devs on everything

It's hard to tell whether Zen actually believes what he says, or whether he's required to be their loyal stooge under the terms of his employment contract.

[Blitz]

It's hard to tell whether Zen actually believes what he says, or whether he's required to be their loyal stooge under the terms of his employment contract.

Takes a lot to make me actually lol when reading forums... and I thought only I noticed

All in good fun Zen

[Norfleet]

Well, the entire "we own your soul" thing tends to be standard boilerplate when dealing with companies. I used to believe Illwinter was different, but now I see there's no real evidence to support that.

[Huzurdaddi]

Well, the entire "we own your soul" thing tends to be standard boilerplate when dealing with companies. I used to believe Illwinter was different, but now I see there's no real evidence to support that.

Nooo .... that sounds bitter and you are too cool to be bitter! Say it ain't so!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
Nooo .... that sounds bitter and you are too cool to be bitter! Say it ain't so!

I'm not too cool to be bitter. I make being bitter cool.

Frankly, I've always been this way. I just thought Illwinter was different. Turns out they're not, to no great surprise. Hey, if it sounds like a rat, and smells like a rat, go figure.

Personally, I'd have been happy to let this thing DIE, but SOMEBODY *glares at Torlin* had to dig this thing back up.

[ June 24, 2004, 07:36: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Actually I don't back IW on every conceivable thing that they say. Because as we all know, everyone is human and can potentially make mistakes. What I do back is the fact that this game, which these forums are for, is singular in the fact that it provides so much more than most other games of it's genre and it has evolved from it's release to now to a much better game, no matter whatever biased opinion that certain players feel because they consistantly have problems with anything being changed from it's original form and take the MMO mentality of everything is a "Nerf" and nothing is an upgrade.

I do however, totally and unflinchingly back the proper context which thoughts and ideas are delivered *to* the Developers if you wish to initiate change. And it is there that most of the conflict arises where I must "back Illwinter".

[ June 24, 2004, 13:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
the MMO mentality of everything is a "Nerf" and nothing is an upgrade

Having played the E&B and SWG MMOs, I can assure you that the majority of the nerfs those games suffered through, during and post-beta, did not improve the game, nor were they felt as "upgrades" by 99% of the players. I can only recall a handful of nerfs that actually worked well to improve game balance. The rest simply lessened (drastically) the enjoyment of the game for those players with characters directly affected by them.

So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players. There are real, serious, longstanding bugs in Dom2 that have yet to be fixed while IW devotes its attention to silencing the whining of a very vocal and tiny percentage of its customers, many of which are grossly challenged in the strategic-thinking department and should go back to playing the mindless twitch games that they're suited for.

If a game is less fun after a patch than before, then that patch's nerfs are counterproductive. E&B and SWG (especially SWG) failed that test miserably. After all, people play games to have fun, and not to just fatten the bank accounts of the companies running the games. So far, I cannot say that about Dom 2, but as I said, the trend is disturbing.

[The Meal]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
While it is normally mandatory policy that I don't play staff

I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)

Thanks,
~The Meal

Originally posted by Arryn:
So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players. There are real, serious, longstanding bugs in Dom2 that have yet to be fixed while IW devotes its attention to silencing the whining of a very vocal and tiny percentage of its customers, many of which are grossly challenged in the strategic-thinking department and should go back to playing the mindless twitch games that they're suited for.

Cross Platform Compatibility and Adjustable Battle speed do not fall into the fix Category then? Or the fact that most of the things that are 'fixed' were discussed before the game was released as something that should/could/would be fixed in the future? (Elemental Armor being one of them)

If a game is less fun after a patch than before, then that patch's nerfs are counterproductive. E&B and SWG (especially SWG) failed that test miserably. After all, people play games to have fun, and not to just fatten the bank accounts of the companies running the games. So far, I cannot say that about Dom 2, but as I said, the trend is disturbing.

It's always going to be less fun for those who never had an issue before a change. Some people have fun playing with sticks, so when people start playing with paintguns suddenly it's 'no fun' to them and they feel 'wronged'. It's a perception issue. The current trend of fixing things that need to be fixed (I.E. Themes, bugs, inconsistancies and in part, balance).

If Clams and Castles were nerfed I might feel the same way, but as it stands now, all I see are people who were burned by games in the past pushing those feelings on a game that hasn't. Negative perception will always be just that. If this was Atari or Troika, you could have a track record of keeping things broke, shipping out unfinished product just for the cash, then leaving it virtually unsupported and without communication.

I personally very little faith in developers (in general) on a released product because of disregarding mentality. But once a developer shows me they do commit to the things they promise I am okay with their effort and willing to cut them a little slack. Others may not feel that way, they may feel that their 49.95 or 64.95 or 39.95 entitles them to make business decisions for a design team and the game they purchased and got their money's worth out of demands to be fixed on their terms or not fixed as the case may be. I just happen to not be in that particular Category.

[ June 24, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Having played the E&B and SWG MMOs,

Also I do believe MMO's are a different kind of beast. An altogether bigger, uglier and in a different Category than I feel Dom2 is in. Not saying I haven't played them, on the contrary, and I know exactly what you are saying and has been said for every MMO past and previous, probably can be said of MUD's as well.