Paper, Rock, Marignon!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
It doesn't have to be entirely one-dimensional. The same units enemies can summon to survive in Ermorian dominion, can be summoned by Ermor, particularly if the Ermorian pretender is a rainbow mage who site-searches.

Yes, it possible for the pretender to summon other troops, but, unfortunately, the pretender is but a single mage who is usually very, very busy. This cannot begin to compete on even footing with nations that can afford to summon these same troops using their expendable national mages....and you will get little help from Ermor's nationals, as most of their skills are entirely in death magic, with but a single random on the Elders.

It's also surprisingly easy to actually work out PEACE with Ermor: Everyone hates Ermor, so Ermor will be likely to happily accept whatever friends it can get. As long as your dominion is not weak, and you are able to keep its destructive dominion out of your lands, a mutually beneficial relationship can be had. Plus you can tell everyone else that you're trying to attack Ermor and get them to give you stuff.

[Kel]

Hmm, wonder if anyone will believe me when i say I was *not* trying to set off another round of Ermor strength/weakness debates ? I honestly was not trying to make a debate on that and I am not even necessarily sure myself (though I still have my own opinions on it).

In fact...even if they are somewhat over-powered, whatever you think about it, it would have less effect on games (the ones I have experienced, anyway) then the perception that they are...or whatever it is that causes the game to become World vs. Ermor (I think there are multiple reasons, actually).

In a complex, deep game with good variety, there aer inevitably going ot be balance issues, it's unavoidable and understandable. I *like* the idea that some nations work differently with certain rules. I would certainly not want to see every nation dumbed down into LI and HI

The only thing I don't like is that Ermor, in a large game, makes games play pretty similary. Frankly, other than just not playing large games, I don't even have a solution ! Yeah, shoot me, it was just a comment, should have known it would turn into an Ermor pro/con debate

- Kel

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Kel:
The only thing I don't like is that Ermor, in a large game, makes games play pretty similary. Frankly, other than just not playing large games, I don't even have a solution ! Yeah, shoot me, it was just a comment, should have known it would turn into an Ermor pro/con debate

Large games with Ermor game the game play similarly because everyone's gut reaction to Ermor tends to be to try and organize against them. Is it a surprise, therefore, that when half your players are banding together in mortal terror against Ermor, that the game will unfold similarly?

Not buying into the hysteria can be very profitable for you. You merely need to be aware that the hysteria will exist, and that it can be exploited for your own ends.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Large games with Ermor game the game play similarly because everyone's gut reaction to Ermor tends to be to try and organize against them. Is it a surprise, therefore, that when half your players are banding together in mortal terror against Ermor, that the game will unfold similarly?

It's not a surprise at all.

That's the problem

- Kel

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Kel:
It's not a surprise at all.

That's the problem

Once again, I place the blame clearly on tight pants.

If your players all *WANT* to gang up on Ermor, you're going to have a gang-up on Ermor. It's purely psychological, there's absolutely no reason for this.

[Mardagg]

Wasnt the topic about Marignon...oh well

I second Kel`s opinion,or feeling,that large games more often than not tend to play quite similar,because of an huge alliance against Ermor.

I,personally,see 2 problems with the Ermor themes,that I dont like,even though I dont consider Ermor overpowered,especially not in the end game or at the very beginning,when the forces of darkness are small.

problem 1:

Ermor (AE and SG) is the nation that benefits the most from players switching to AI or dont giving orders anymore.
Large games tend to Last longer on average and cover normally all 17 nations.
This leads,naturally,to quite a few players,who cant or dont want to invest time anymore in the game.
Now,as the AI cant deal with Ermor,Ermor will be happy,if he is neighbouring such a country.

But Ermor does also benefit more from players doing nothing and not going to AI.
Ermor normally has the troops to conquer all those unprepared provinces much faster than other nations.Ermor also dont has to worry about supply,which can be important if the inactive nation is quite big,especially important if this is at the beginning of a game,where most nations dont have the environment to produce supply items,castles or summon non-eating troops.

Solution:
Make at least the AI stronger against Ermor.
As this wont be likely,this problem will most likely not be solved this way.


Problem 2:
Big games very often,too often,lead to an "all gang on Ermor situation".
This can also be sometimes frustrating for the Ermor-player -)
Just to clarify:
I have played several MP-games now,mostly large games.
When it goes to the middle game and later to the end game,I have yet to see a vanished Ermor Empire.
Whereas I have seen nearly all other nations,in one game or another,already vanished.
Especially in large games,where everyone has to plan for longterms,everyone knows,that an early attack on Ermor will severely hamper his own expansion(maybe getting gems,but no income;producing more priests/researching special spells/producing special troops which may become quite useless afterwards)compared to others who wage war against "Normal "nations or only indies.
Because of this and the fact,that the map is bigger than in smaller games(thus it is more diffult to attack Ermor earlier with more nations),its juts plain clear that Ermor will survive until everyone fears him and gangs on him.Normally this will be the case,when certain very terrific globals are put up with huge amout of extra gems and/or the Army/gem/castle graphs
grow bigger and bigger,until all nations are scared just because of the numbers.

Solutions:

-Play smaller maps,where Ermor more often gets cleaned from the map early
-Ally with Ermor.
(possible,but for some nations very difficult).
-Dont allow Ermor at all or only their main theme.
-Attack Ermor alone as soon as you see it.
(Well,depending on the situation and your nation/tactic this could prove to be suicide more often than not,especially after Ermor has established a strong position,which will be in large games with lots independents most likely the case).

Best solution:
-make their main theme stronger,so that at least sometimes one will encounter this.
I have yet to see a MP game,where Ermor uses the main theme and that makes me sad
This solution also would solve the first problem,i have with Ermor

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Ermor normally has the troops to conquer all those unprepared provinces much faster than other nations.

Ermor actually has a troop production problem in the early game, which severely limits their early expansion.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Solutions:

-Play smaller maps,where Ermor more often gets cleaned from the map early
-Ally with Ermor.
(possible,but for some nations very difficult).
-Dont allow Ermor at all or only their main theme.
-Attack Ermor alone as soon as you see it.
(Well,depending on the situation and your nation/tactic this could prove to be suicide more often than not,especially after Ermor has established a strong position,which will be in large games with lots independents most likely the case).

These are all potentially valid approaches, but all still derive from one issue: That Ermor is somehow special and must be dealt with in some way immediately or the problem becomes untenable.

This is the response of hysteria. This is the fundamental reason why people like to ally against Ermor...and this is something you can play like a fiddle. Nearly any act or demand, no matter how outlandish, can be justified in the name of "attacking Ermor". People will willingly hand over tracts of territory that lance straight into the heartlands....just because you said you wanted to attack Ermor. It is entirely profitable to you to feed off of their fear, conning them out of their resources and valuables, all so you can "fight Ermor", whether you're actually going to do so or not: This can then all be diverted into your own personal agenda, which may or may not have anything to do with Ermor.

I say again: Ermor isn't the problem, player hysteria is the problem.

Best solution:
-make their main theme stronger,so that at least sometimes one will encounter this.
I have yet to see a MP game,where Ermor uses the main theme and that makes me sad
This solution also would solve the first problem,i have with Ermor

Broken Empire could definitely use some improvement, given that it really, well, kinda boring. It's just like all the other nations.

[Karacan]

The one reason why Ermor would still be playing in the middlegame is, for me, because I know I can likely handle them late game (unless I play Ulm, that is).

I find an Evocation-researched mass-communing Pythium, a Vastness-empowering, clam-hoarding R'lyeh or a devil-chainproducing Abysia much more scary in the middle to end-game than the thought of trudging an army of priests through inhospitable terrain. So naturally, those are prime targets I'd invest much more energy in to take out early. Even a Machaka with Flaming Arrows scares me more - but that's probably only because I lost my very first real DomII pbem against them because of underestimation on my part...

[Cohen]

The Ermor problem (or better, advantage) is that he can take a lot of points from scales, getting 600 points more or less (Turmoil 3, Death 3, Sloth 3, Cold 3 = 480. Misfortune ... up to you ... 3 would be nice, most events kills pop, but this prevent you from receiving national heroes. However from 0 to 120 additional points).

So on his pretender is almost always overpowered ... for Ashen Empire and Soul Gate.
So it would be nice in a patch to see Ermor not getting pretender design points from non-affecting bad scales. He gets only from Lucky and the Magic scale.