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View Poll Results: Am I already screwed if I do not get access to sages?
Yes! (See my reasons posted above...) 6 30.00%
No! (See my reasons posted above...) 14 70.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old February 18th, 2005, 05:59 PM

The Panther The Panther is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

Interesting post, Truidy, and food for thought. It just so happens that I have recently played those same three races in MP and behaved nearly exactly like you did:

1. Pythium. This is one of the races that simply does not need any sages. I think I built maybe 10 sages in my game by turn 40, mainly for the random pick. Normal research meant a zero need of sages for me.
2. C'tis Miasmi. I never built a sage. They die to disease and I always would rather have another shaman instead of a dying sage. This was set on hard research, but I still didn't need any sages to be the third nation to finish all research (Pythium was first, Caelum second to complete).
3. Abysia - I built sages by the boatloads from two libraries. I must have built 80 of them, probably more. I quit building them for a while, lost some to fires from afar, and then started building some more. But this game was very hard research and I really, really wanted to get to ghost riders after getting the blood 9 research done plus my needed construction and evocation research. The cheapest Abysian capitol-only national mage was much too busy with blood hunting to waste time on mundane tasks like studying.

Also, there is 4: Atlantis. I have built maybe 20 sages (turn 68) and only because of the very hard research setting. Otherwise, my 60 gold amphibous acolytes work just fine, thank you very much. Capitol only is a drag for the acolytes, though.

One thing is for sure, the need for sages is strongly dependent on your race and theme selection as well as the hardness of the research setting. The real problem with sages is that it evens out the research ability of the various nations and they take away the sting of hard or very hard research.

The drawback to nerfing sages is that it would just make the strongest race even stronger. Pythium is already too powerful as is and does not need any help by hurting the other races through limited sages.
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  #42  
Old February 19th, 2005, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

@Tuidjy & The Panther:What were the map sizes and magic site frequency in the examples cited?

Quote:
Tuidjy wrote:Sages are rather common and available to everyone.
I really doubt that for lower magic site frequency (<= 40%) on smaller maps (50-120 provinces with 5-10 players)!

In my last game as C'tis Miasma on Inland map with 7 players, I built shamen with highest priority, but had no chance to compete in research and got swarmed by summons. Well, admittingly my fault was that I realized to late to go for construction and lightless laterns, but at least that gave me the feeling to catch up a bit... And, I have to admit that as well, the shamen where quite some fun on the battlefield as my nation got steam-rolled...

---

Well, I am not on a crusade to nerf the sages! I just feel that there is something wrong with them under the settings I depicted above - and I am still wondering how to fix this problem with a mod for myself, for I am not aware of any way to fix them that would make me really happier about them right now! I am thus contemplating some ideas here to mod sages, and ask whether people would think that those are fair. After all a mod is only useful if I can convince my fellow players to accept it...
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  #43  
Old February 19th, 2005, 02:57 PM

alexti alexti is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

I've replied no to the poll. Before the poll I haven't even realized that sages are that important. While being efficient researchers, sages are not particularly good at other tasks. And in general research capability is somewhat overestimated. I often could research something nice, but I wouldn't have enough gems yet to benefit from it. For example, here's a bunch of my past games:
1) Jotunheim Iron Woods - no sages (didn't find them until very late, and then there was no point buying them). Instead I've found adepts of gold and iron order - that's nice for Jotuns - won. Key to success was early successful conquest.
2) Jotunheim Utgard - no sages (didn't find any). The only indies I've found were azure mages and shadow seers - about the last thing Utgard needs. Game crashed when I was one of the top contenders and in a good position to win. Key to success - diplomacy and finding Mount Chaining.
3) Pangaea default - no sages, until late (something like turn 50). I've bought some sages (because my research was still really low at that time), so they've been useful. I've passed that game to another person who has proceed to win (that other person was Norfleet though). Key to success - success in early wars resulting in a large empire plus diplomacy. Sages were somewhat helpful.
4) Caelum. Found sages, bought several (for random picks, rather than for research - I didn't have other indies with randoms). Won - the game was with very hard research and tough indies and that's very much to Caelum's advantage. Key to success - choice of nation
5) Caelum. Found sages (turn 20-25), bought very few of them for random picks, but few turns later I've found enchantress and stopped buying sages. Won. Key to success - successful early war, found enchantment+30 site, found Shamen and Druids early.
6) C'tis. Found sages early, bought plenty of them (around 2 dozens I think). The game crashed when I was in good position to win. Key to success - found crystal mages, sages and many good site in the early game.
7) Pangaea (default). No sages. The game crashed when I was in a good position for alliance win. Key to success - successful early conquest.
8) Pythium (default). No sages. Was top contender when the game stopped. Key to success - nation choice.
9) Machaka. No sages. Allied win. Key to success - early conquest.
10) Jotunheim Iron Woods. No sages. Win. Key to success - early conquest.
11) Pangaea (default). No sages. Win. Key to success - early conquest.

I've listed here the games I won or where I was in a good position to win when the game stopped (omitting those I've lost, where sometimes I had sages and sometimes I didn't, but the reason for the loss were various)

Only once sages has played really big role, in few other cases they only played a minor role. In half of the cases, I didn't use them.

The most important (though not necessary) key to success seems to be an early conquest. Doubling the size of your empire (including gold and gem income) really negates research benefits of sages, because you have twice the gold you can spend on mages. Finding some good sites (like Mount Chaining) can also turn the game. For many nations, finding indies with missing paths (like for Jotuns finding adepts of golden/iron orders) is much more beneficial than finding sages. So in my book, finding sages is a good event, but it's not the game decider. Starting position (which includes who are your neighbours) and finding great sites and indies fitting to your nation is more important.

Of course, my statistics come from a certain play style. I don't take drain scale, my usual magic scale is +1 to +3. I haven't played all nations equally and all my wins were with strong nations, sages or not, Ulm or TC is hard to win with.

Nevertheless, my point is that you can have strategy that won't crumble if you don't find sages and win with it.
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  #44  
Old February 19th, 2005, 08:06 PM

The Panther The Panther is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

Quote:
Chazar said:
@Tuidjy & The Panther:What were the map sizes and magic site frequency in the examples cited?

It was 50% magic sites in all four of my games cited above. The first two games were on a crowded Karan, a smallish map in which sages are not overly important because libraries are harder to find for everybody.

My Abysia game was on Cradle, and I had 83 provinces (more than twice the number anyone else had) when the game crashed. My need for sages in that game was extreme because of the very hard research setting. Plus Abysia is one of the races that most benefits from sages, as the cheap capitol-only mage has much more to do than research.

My Atlantis game is on the huge Faerun map. That map is so big that sages are not a big deal. I simply found a library and started recruiting a sage every turn with my infinite gold income just because I felt like it and I wanted Niefel Flames (very hard research setting). That game is using the scale mods where growth was changed to 0.5%, which is definitely too much. Using growth 3, my income is now gigantic (5K per turn). I have about 50 provinces and am in second place, I believe, though so many people have quit or gone AI that the game is mostly busted now.

But had I not found those two libraries in my Abysia game, I would definitely not have been leading the game when it crashed. The sages allowed me to get both Blood 9 and Conjuration 9 far earlier than would have otherwise been achievable on the very hard research setting.
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  #45  
Old February 19th, 2005, 08:37 PM
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The_Tauren13 The_Tauren13 is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

Quote:
Kristoffer O said:
Hiding it would give astral nations a great advantage though.
That's a silly thing to say. One could just as easily argue, say, fire nations have a great advantage because of, like, the High Temple of the Magii.

But even so, you could just make it less common but still level 0.
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  #46  
Old February 19th, 2005, 09:14 PM

Huzurdaddi Huzurdaddi is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
Quote:
Kristoffer O said:
Hiding it would give astral nations a great advantage though.
That's a silly thing to say. One could just as easily argue, say, fire nations have a great advantage because of, like, the High Temple of the Magii.

No he's quite correct. If it was hidden and you needed ( for example ) astral-1 to find it then sage sites would be a huge advantage to astral nations.
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  #47  
Old February 19th, 2005, 09:15 PM

Huzurdaddi Huzurdaddi is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

.
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  #48  
Old February 20th, 2005, 01:32 PM

The Panther The Panther is offline
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

I have finally discovered exactly why libraries seem much too common. Other then the copper/gold/silver/iron mines, there is exactly ONE site which is:
1. Level 0
2. Common
3. Available in ANY terrain

Yep - the Library.
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  #49  
Old February 20th, 2005, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

Quote:
The Panther said:
I have finally discovered exactly why libraries seem much too common. Other then the copper/gold/silver/iron mines, there is exactly ONE site which is:
1. Level 0
2. Common
3. Available in ANY terrain

Yep - the Library.
How did you check this ? What about the Arena e.g. ?
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  #50  
Old February 20th, 2005, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

The Arena is, I believe, not available in all terrains (water provinces, swamps and the like), while the Library is available virtually anywhere (I haven't seen one in a swamp yet, but I seldom bother with swamps to begin with).
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