Best - worse magic paths - Page 5

Graeme Dice · #41 November 13th, 2006, 08:47 PM

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Truper said:
This "analysis" ignores the fact that vine ogres can be buffed, and do not operate in a magic-support-free vacuum.

If the person lost a battle because of mage support, then they lost it because of mages, not because of vine ogres. It's also not like there's a useful battlefield wide buff spell other than mist warriors and arrow fend for vine ogres.

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In Dom2, Vine Ogres were absurdly underpriced. Calculate the number of gems spent on that Bane Lord, and then calculate the number of hitpoints possesed by an army of Vine Ogres on which an equal number of gems was spent.

Easy. 10 death gems for the bane lord, 20 slaves for the blood thorn (The equivalent of about 5-10 normal gems), 5 pearls for the luck pendant, 5 water and 5 earth for the jade armour, 5 earth and 5 fire for the charcoal shield. That's a grand total of 40-45 gems for the bane lord, or 80-90 vine ogres and 40 mage turns to summon them.

Those vine ogres have two fist attacks and a protection of 5, so they cause themselves 11 damage each turn they attack, and the bane lord causes 34 damage per turn. Over the course of the battle, the bane lord will kill 25 vine ogres by himself. The charcoal shield takes five turns to kill one, but since up to 16 will surround the bane lord, you can expect him to kill up to a maximum of about 160 vine ogres given optimum placing.

I've seen what fireshield does to vine ogres. On a dragon that's currently at F7 the shield killed 50 vine ogres well before the 50 turn limit. I also know from first hand experience that sea trolls, which are better meat shields than vine ogres will die to a similarly equipped ice devil.

Vine ogres were one of the few early research summons that had actual use, despite their expense, throughout the game, which is hardly a bad thing.

Shovah32 · #42 November 13th, 2006, 09:02 PM

Mass protection and/or regen make vine ogres alot more survivable and weapons of sharpness (would it work even though they only have fists?) could make them deadly if they hit.

Graeme Dice · #43 November 13th, 2006, 09:24 PM

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Shovah32 said:
Mass protection and/or regen make vine ogres alot more survivable and weapons of sharpness (would it work even though they only have fists?) could make them deadly if they hit.

Mass protection only raises their protection to 10 as vine ogres don't wear armour, and makes them 25% susceptible to fire, so that's only a small boost. Mass regeneration is enchantment 8, so you pretty much deserve to have such a powerful spell by the time you research it. Weapons of sharpness is E5 which limits its access to only a few nations. Although to be fair, there are a couple of nations that have access to both N3 and E3 mages. However, I'd rather not spend 23 gold a turn to summon two vine ogres with a Pan.

Shovah32 · #44 November 13th, 2006, 09:33 PM

You could always play an earth heavy nation and take nature on your pretender (he could then summon vine kings to summon vine ogres and lead them)

NTJedi · #45 November 13th, 2006, 10:57 PM

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Corwin said:

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Shovah32 said:
casting the spell swarm, a level 1 nature spell requiring 1 gem that, iirc produces 20 weak dragonflys or something like that. Using it with undead archers you can get some (practically free) chaff that it dosnt matter if your archers hit or not (since they die after battle)

Yes, I know what these both seplls are. I was curious about the synergy between them.

I understand your point, and I agree that swarm is a nice delaying spell. But how is this combo (with undead archers) different from using swarm with any other deadly missile attack? Like for example "normal archers with fire arrows"/"swarm" combo?

Because it's not always possible to use normal archers when advancing into enemy lines... disease, gold, morale, food supplies. Also not every nation has access to fire mages which can provide their archers with fire arrows.
On the same note not every nation can acquire the undead archers easily.

NTJedi · #46 November 13th, 2006, 10:59 PM

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Corwin said:

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Meglobob said:
Its weakened alot because yr troops no longer starve so items like enormous cauldron of broth r no longer very important.

What do you mean - "no longer starve"? I thought I saw the starvation message in Dom3. Do you mean - they no longet get desease from starvation in dom3?

Units still starve in DOM_3 yet not as often because supplies are in greater number.

Arameyan · #47 November 14th, 2006, 12:40 AM

Talking of lamia queens...

What is their bonus to cast lamias? +1? +2? more?

Some EA pans may have N5...

Windreaper · #48 November 14th, 2006, 11:43 PM

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Arameyan said:
Talking of lamia queens...

What is their bonus to cast lamias? +1? +2? more?

Some EA pans may have N5...

They used to get +2 and it still says so in the desc. Pan has no problems summoning the queens (you need to empower a Pan in death in EA, though), but you might as well use the Panii to summon the Lamias, since in Dom3 the queens cost a bunch and don't even start with the required nature levels (you need some luck with randoms or pathboosters --> easier and more effective to use a Pan). Maybe if the queens could call Lamias without using the ritual...At current gem costs they're just so not worth it, imo.