[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Atrocities]

JMHO

Saddam wants the nuke. Why? What would happen if he got it? Would he hold the middle east hostage and threaten to set off a nuke in the oil fields if we or anyone retalated against him for nuking Israil? You better believe he would.

What Saddam wants, he gets. He will continue to seek the bomb until he has it. That is unless he himself is stopped.

Whether we take him on now, or after New York and Washington DC are craters the results will be the same, with one noteable exception, if we take him on now, and remove him from power, then perhaps, we just might save billions, yes billions, of lives. My vote is bite the bullet and take him on now. Then North Korea. They are a threat, but they are not yet terrorist bent on destroying their neighbor(s).

[raynor]

I did a Google search for "Bush use of nuclear weapons". This is the most authorative link I found:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/10/nuclear.contingency/

Bush officials downplay story on nuke plans

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Bush administration and military officials said Sunday the United States reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in the event it or its allies are attacked, but said that option does not represent a change in policy.

----

I didn't see any that advocated a first strike. All the links seem to be plans to use nukes in response to an attack on us or our allies.

[ February 25, 2003, 20:42: Message edited by: raynor ]

[rextorres]

Everyone forgets that Pakistan has the bomb (and they have more anti-american extremists than anybody - that's where the Taliban come from - remember them?) so if the govt really cared about disarming terrorist they probably should have focused on them -

The war on Saddam is just a red herring because W needs something so that people don't think about his failed economic policies and his failure on the war on terrorism.

[ February 25, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Andrés]

I had just heard that comment I quote on the radio and wanted to know the opinion of my "American friends" around here.
Maybe I should have edited out the mention of atomic bombs, I don't think this has anything to do with the Iraq conflict.

I agree with you Dogscoff, this is one of the few places where I can see both opposite opinions confronted and compare them.
I don't think we'll ever convince each other in this issue, but that will not change the respect I hold for other members of the SEIV community, and hope they feel the same way towards myself.
I don't think this disrupt any friendships as VampiricDread feared.

The reason I posted it here and wouldn't want this thread to be moved is that I never visit any of the other forums in shrapnel. My bookmarks point directly to the SEIV section.

It's scary to see how most Americans, who always have claimed to support free thought and speech, have been convinced by their propaganda and supporting this war at any cost.

I don't think he is half as bad as you describe but no one is defending Hussein.
Even if Americans turned him into a monster, the fact that he's a monster remains and something needs to be done about this monster.
I just think that war will make more problems that it will solve.
If they just wanted Saddam killed they a few infiltrated agents could have done it. They could support an internal revolution from the Iraqi people and maybe even place their own puppet government in power.
But they need to make an example out of Iraq so no one else dares to defy US authority, and also need an to place troops permanently there.

The international community is not standing for such a blatant act of imperialism now either.
The only ones that have been convinced by all this "war on terror" propaganda are Americans themselves and a few pro-Americans in their closest allies.

As a matter of fact all this discussion is pointless. Even if we could make some Americans see how wrong this war is.
The decision is already done, the invasion of Iraq was planned long before 9-11.
American government, or whoever is actually in charge seems to excel in manipulating masses.
First leaving themselves open to a terrorist attack, that may have been worse than what they expected. Then skillfully manipulating the people's emotions to extract the worst part of their hatred and xenophobia and direct it towards their previously chosen enemy.

So after Iraqis hate you after you've been provoking them after more than a decade. What did you expect?

I do mind my own business when the discussion is about internal USA affairs. (although I found that your discussions and complains about politician are not so different from the complains we have about own)
But here the US pretends to have higher moral standards and that it's their duty to save the rest of the world from its own barbarism.
While they are actually doing it for their own reasons. OK it's not only the oil, there's also the need to justify their military expenses, and of course unite their own people and distract them from the problems in their own country.
You have no right to accuse those who do not support you of being cowards o traitors.

You will never convince me that this war will be for the good of humankind.

[geoschmo]

War is always a failure, but some times it's inevitable.

You are most likely 100% correct when you say that war will probably cause more problems then it solves. But I support going to war if diplomacy fails in the end because I believe that the problems caused by the war will be preferable to the problems that will be caused by continuing to tolerate and appease the current Iraqi administration.

Geoschmo

[primitive]

This quote is from a victim of the Holocaust and is printed on one of the walls in the Holocaust Museum. The quote reads something like:

- When they came for the socialists I did not speak out because I was not a socialist.
- When they came for the homosexuals I did not speak out because I was not a homosexual.
- When they came for the Jews I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
- When they came for me there was no one left to speak out.

I have said what I wanted to say in this thread. I will not post here again.

Going to the Cantina for a drink, anyone care to join.

[Phoenix-D]

"It's scary to see how most Americans, who always have claimed to support free thought and speech, have been convinced by their propaganda and supporting this war at any cost."

Free speech includes the freedom to hold views you find wrong or offensive, you know.

"I don't think he is half as bad as you describe but no one is defending Hussein.
Even if Americans turned him into a monster, the fact that he's a monster remains and something needs to be done about this monster.
I just think that war will make more problems that it will solve.
If they just wanted Saddam killed they a few infiltrated agents could have done it. They could support an internal revolution from the Iraqi people and maybe even place their own puppet government in power.
But they need to make an example out of Iraq so no one else dares to defy US authority, and also need an to place troops permanently there."

Wacking the leader of a head of state, without consulting any of our allies? That'd send a pretty strong message, and I guarentee there would be much yelling and screaming over even thinking about it.

"The international community is not standing for such a blatant act of imperialism now either.
The only ones that have been convinced by all this "war on terror" propaganda are Americans themselves and a few pro-Americans in their closest allies."

You're spouting about as much proof as the propagana. Please defend this: before Bush started talking war, I heard:
"Take away the sanctions, they are useless"
"Take out the inspectors, Iraq has disarmed"

Now I hear:
"The sanctions are working fine."
"Give the inspectors a chance"
"Iraq has disarmed"
"Iraq will use chem/bio weapons if we attack"

Many of these come from the same Groups, and interestingly, I've seen those Last two in the SAME ARGUMENT. Hello?

"As a matter of fact all this discussion is pointless. Even if we could make some Americans see how wrong this war is.
The decision is already done, the invasion of Iraq was planned long before 9-11.
American government, or whoever is actually in charge seems to excel in manipulating masses.
First leaving themselves open to a terrorist attack, that may have been worse than what they expected. Then skillfully manipulating the people's emotions to extract the worst part of their hatred and xenophobia and direct it towards their previously chosen enemy."

Who is spouting propagnda now? Lets see here..latest opinion poll (not hugely reliable, but it's what I've got) support for war declines to 36%. You say the international community doesn't want war; it was that SAME community that got Bush Sr. to stop before taking out Saddam Hussein in the first place. If we were so hell-bent on doing this..explain why it didn't happen then.

"So after Iraqis hate you after you've been provoking them after more than a decade. What did you expect?"

Provoking them. You have got to be ~$%~ me. The dictator in question ignores the treaty which got him the cease-fire, and is punished for it- by the UN, not just the US. And we're responsible for this. Hmm.

"I do mind my own business when the discussion is about internal USA affairs. (although I found that your discussions and complains about politician are not so different from the complains we have about own)
But here the US pretends to have higher moral standards and that it's their duty to save the rest of the world from its own barbarism.
While they are actually doing it for their own reasons. OK it's not only the oil, there's also the need to justify their military expenses, and of course unite their own people and distract them from the problems in their own country.
You have no right to accuse those who do not support you of being cowards o traitors"

I'll ask this, intead of berating you like I want to.

If it is about oil, and everything you mentioned, why Iraq? Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabi, which is only marginally friendly to the US and has more oil.

Phoenix-D

[SamuraiProgrammer]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

---

If you are not a citizen of the United States, mind your own damn business.

Screw you! This is an international issue! When this war escalates anti-western hatred and terrorists start blowing up my home town, will it be my business then? When the Koreans start throwing nukes at my house because George Bush has announced that they are next on his hit-list, whose business will it be? When the UN is finally steamrolled into nothing and Georgy boy declares himself the undisputed gunslinging, nuke-juggling wild-west sheriff of the world (With Toady Tony Blair as his dutiful deputy) am I allowed to voice an opinion then?

---

Certainly, you are allowed to voice an opinion. I apologize sincerely for stating my remark in such a way as to imply that you had no right to speak or have an opinion.

My remark was to indicate whose opinions I would give credence to when reevaluating my position. You have pointed out a flaw in my logic and I thank you for that.

Please remember that the written word is usually harsher than the spoken word. Much can be softened by intonation and body language.

I would like to clarify my statement as follows:

Anyone can have an opinion and are welcome to voice it.

I will even pay attention to it if you come from a country that had thousands of civilians murdered in an *unprovoked* attack by foreign nationals.

[ February 25, 2003, 23:10: Message edited by: SamuraiProgrammer ]

[DavidG]

OK so let's say the US her allies back off and leave Iraq alone. I'd be interested in hearing from the peace activists when is the right time for war?

Is it when Iraq develops long range missles that can hit Israel? or maybe Europe? Is it when he fires a few at Israel? Or perhaps when he expands program to give cash to the families of sucide bombers in Israel to include bombers in your country? Is it when he finaly gets nukes? Or perhaps when he dies and his even more barbaric son takes over?

I also find it interesting how certain countries who oppose a war seem to be considered all high and noble. Like France who is one of Iraqs major trading partners and whos oil companies have, I heard, signed multi billion dollar contracts to deveolp Iraqs oil fields. Or Russia who is owed approximately 8 billion dollars by Iraq for past weapon sales. Or China another of Iraqs trading partners etc etc.

[Mephisto]

I will even pay attention to it if you come from a country that had thousands of civilians murdered in an *unprovoked* attack by foreign nationals.

In this case, listen to us Europeans. Every nation here has been attacked unprovoked one time or the other by a foreign nation. Ask France, Belgium, Netherlands, England, Poland, Ex-Yugoslavia, Greece, Russia, Slovakia, Norway, Denmark and the many other nations we Germans attacked under a dictator just 50 years ago.