Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities

[Growltigga]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
If cats had invented pants they would no doubt be the dominant species on the planet.[/QB]

That possibly may be the case but I believe that felix vulgaris was too busy developing alternative 'carryall' technology to trouser technology to notice

[DirectorTsaarx]

I have to agree that using multiple planets in a single sector to get faster training is NOT a cheat/bug/flaw; I think it's a neat idea. I'm sorry I didn't think of trying it myself.

I'd also like to mention that using training facilities against the AI isn't necessarily "unsporting". At least one of the stock AIs (and, I suspect, many of the TDM AI's) use racial points to improve offense and/or defense. I usually put points into construction, repair and research (not to mention Temporal Knowledge & advanced propulsion), so I've ended up on the receiving end of what amounts to a better-trained fleet. It's not pretty. In fact, it can be downright upsetting when you only hit with 10% of your shots while the enemy AI completely destroys your fleet. So, when I meet one of the offense/defense bonus races I'll build training facilities just to even the odds (or tip the scales in my favor, of course ).

[Spuzzum]

[quote]Originally posted by geoschmo:

That argument is false Spuzzum. What you are missing is that this isn't just a matter of a game flaw allowing you to do something you aren't supposed to be able to do. The game doesn't say you aren't supposed to be able to do this. You are making an assumption based on incomplete evidence.

The game doesn't necessarily say you can, either. You can simply do it due to an unforeseen circumstance.

Happens to me all the time, since I'm a fledgeling programmer. My players are always finding nifty little tricks that give them an advantage.

You may be capable of assasinating the PM

Premier. Prime Minister's over in Ottawa -- while I do have a bone to pick with him too, he's far better defended, and I don't have the money for a plane ticket. ;-)

but you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's against the laws of Canada and the inalienable laws of mankind.

Just because you say it's wrong to have multiple training faciliites doesn't meean it is wrong. If a future patch were made that made it against the rules, but because of a mistake the fix didn't work and you still could do it, then it would be an exploit and cheating to continue doing it. Until then it is clearly not.

The problem here is not the fact that the game doesn't officially say that it's wrong -- it's the fact that the game definitely makes the implication that there should only ever be one training facility per sector, since the normal circumstance is to have only one planet per sector. I agree that saying something is wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but finding a scapegoat doesn't make things right either.

If I arbitrarily say it's unfair to attack an enemy without warning, or without giving them time to prepare defenses, do you have to not do that? Would you be cheating if you did it? Of course not.

Unfair things are not quite the same as unintended things.

The game was designed with diplomacy and backstabbing in mind. It wasn't designed with the intent to allow people to build facilities on multiple planets in the same sector to gain a greater advantage.

[PaladinOfEarth]

Wardad
"BUT.... THERE ARE NO GAS MOONS!!!
Gas Giant races are at a serious early game disadvantage"

Unless you choose:
"Advanced Storage Technique". This, (to my experiance), ballences the equation.
As mentioned many tiems, SE IV is an elaborate game of Rock / Paper / Sissors.
That combination of more resourses should offset the lack of Gas Moons.

May your draw always be swift, your aim accurate, and your reason noble.

[PaladinOfEarth]

As for the issue of fair or unfair in the multible faciites per sector,
I'm with Gryphin and Geoschmo.

Make, (and honor), a gentlmans agreement with humans.
Don't use it against the AI.

[Gryphin]

Reguarding "Sporting"
At the beging of the game we are on equal foottings with the designers of the AI.
If we want the added defensive bonus the way the AI is given it, then that is the time to take it. In doing so we make the same tradeoffs that the designer of the AI had to make.
During the game, the AI is unlikely to take advantage of a Training Faciity if it does build one.
At that point it becomes, FMPS, (For My Play Style), unsporting to use them.
That said, I must conceed there are many things a human can not avoid doing that the AI can not / will not do.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Spuzzum:
The game doesn't necessarily say you can, either. You can simply do it due to an unforeseen circumstance.

Then again, the game doesn't specifically say you can combine Shard Cannons and Shield Disruptors, now, does it?

The problem here is not the fact that the game doesn't officially say that it's wrong -- it's the fact that the game definitely makes the implication that there should only ever be one training facility per sector, since the normal circumstance is to have only one planet per sector. I agree that saying something is wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but finding a scapegoat doesn't make things right either.

Not true. In basic, unMODded SEIV (v1.49), moons aren't vanishingly rare. I'd say any planet has about a 50/50 chance to have one or more moons. Ergo, a sector has only a 50/50 chance of having only one world.

IMO if it had beenintended that only one such facility would be effective per sector, then it would have been designed as such, and stated as such.

Unfair things are not quite the same as unintended things.

The game was designed with diplomacy and backstabbing in mind. It wasn't designed with the intent to allow people to build facilities on multiple planets in the same sector to gain a greater advantage.

Actually, neither you nor I can attest to the intent of the program, without either (a) proving that one or the other of us is/was, in fact, one fo the programmers responsible for producing SEIV or SEIV/Gold ... or (b) via/supported by direct testimony fromsomeone who WAS a programmer for SEIV or SEIV/Gold.

So I'm sorry, you cannot legitimately state as if it were fact, that it was or was not the "intent" of the facilities to work, or not work, when stacked in a multiple-world sector.

(edit for UBBcode error, oops)

[ July 11, 2002, 05:21: Message edited by: Pax ]

[Captain Kwok]

Actually, moons are equally rare in both the Standard and Gold Versions of SE4. The actually entries haven't changed...that's why you always get that huge planet with two moons with the same number of planet systems etc...

I recommend trying Fyron's Quad Mod...it adds more systemtypes and moons...if you like that kind of thing.

[Spuzzum]

It all boils down to what's fair, in the end -- taking advantage of that oversight is definitely unfair, in my opinion. Shard cannons and shield depleters don't convey an unfair advantage, since you spent all of the work to research them and everything, so you have every right to stick them on the same ship.

Putting multiple training facilities in a single location, on the other hand, requires no real in-game resources -- it's a trick masterminded by a player. You didn't earn that ability to build multiple things in the same sector; you discovered it out-of-character, then manipulated it to your whims.

I can't say that I speak for Aaron, but isn't this common sense? The whole ploy is a lot like Microsoft, in a way -- if they find a convenient little loophole that allows them to defeat their competitors, it might be legal, but they're still a tyrant.


In any case, being a newbie around here, I doubt anyone will take me very seriously, so I'll withdraw from this argument before I start getting pithy and annoyed. ;-P

[Fyron]

In any case, being a newbie around here, I doubt anyone will take me very seriously, so I'll withdraw from this argument before I start getting pithy and annoyed. ;-P

It matters not if you are a newbie. Your words are as valid as anyone else's (except maybe Aaron Hall himself ).