Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong? - Page 5

Meglobob · #41 March 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM

Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

Its all been discussed before and its always players who are fairly new to the game who complain. Look on defeating those nations as a challenge.

Neither nation has come anywhere near winning any MP I have played in and I have played alot. Those games are on 15 prov/player maps. Small 1 on 1 blitz games is a different story and Vanheim/Hellheim walk over most other nations but I do not play those so no problem for me.

lch · #42 March 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM

I think the issue here is that unexperienced people suffer extraordinary defeats compared to normal combat unless they develop and use "anti" tactics as somebody said (even if in some cases, it's just: "use magic"), instead of being able to just use a naive "My army is bigger than your army" assessment of the situation like they normally use to do. I don't want to generalize and say that everybody who says that Vans/Hels are unbalanced (hello? earth/nature bless Niefel? Ermor?) is an unexperienced newb, but that's the conclusion that they usually come to and they get exited about here on the forums.

thejeff · #43 March 5th, 2007, 02:40 PM

Except of course double blessed Van troops, or worse Hellheim, are also undetectable stealthy raiders. Small groups of them can trash much more expensive armies and then either disappear or join together to beat more serious forces.

I'm suspicious of claims that it must be balanced because there are so many options that something must work.

Of course the heims can be beaten. In early game, by other uber-bless nations or maybe SC pretenders, or more likely alliances. Late game they're not so strong, unless they got enough advantage from early victories.

I'm not sure "can be stopped by 2-3 enemies after wiping out the nearest neighbors" counts as balanced.
But maybe I haven't played enough multiplayer.

Kuritza · #44 March 5th, 2007, 02:49 PM

Once again. I'm not an unexperienced player. I have played Domionions 1 and Dominions 2, some blitzes and pbem games in Dominions 3, some of these won. I know how to use magic etc, BUT:

In one of the games I play atm I have to face a e9/w9 vanheim as a MA Tien Chi. He rummages through my provinces and I cannot do much against him. Lightning bolt doesnt kill his units, falling frost is entirely useless because of defense check, gifts from heaven arent reliable against small and fast armies (not to mention I cant send my mages with crafted boots to all provinces he may or may not attack), frozen heart is not researched yet but even that is only useful with my capitol-only mages because vans have +3 hit points, my regular troops are scattering like dust without doing any damage. I have three SK Sea King trolls who can kill any amount of such vans (did some tests), but two or three vanjarls with simple equipment can kill him with 100% decree of success.

Gandalf, you say I shouldnt go head to head? Sorry, couldnt you elaborate how should I survive his raiding then? Not going head to head with Vanheim means playing on his own field - I wont outraid him, you cant raid better than 2-blessed Vanheim. Oh, before you mention it, there are two or three consorts in each of his provinces. Yet my income keeps dwindling while his stays the same thanks to the raiding.
Vanheim dies easily in late game? I beg to differ, he STILL has vastly superior troops and magic that matches my own (air 3, earth 3).

Gandalf Parker · #45 March 5th, 2007, 02:57 PM

Try playing larger maps, fewer AIs, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

Teraswaerto · #46 March 5th, 2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

Kuritza · #47 March 5th, 2007, 03:13 PM

Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.

Meglobob · #48 March 5th, 2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Teraswaerto said:

Quote:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

BigDisAwesome · #49 March 5th, 2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.

Gandalf Parker · #50 March 5th, 2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Kuritza said:
Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.

Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.