Dev Thinking on Balance? - Page 5

Kristoffer O · #41 May 4th, 2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catquiet:
The White Bull does very well at early expansion. The problem with the VQ is that she can go into battle without equiping any items, take a large chunk out of an elite endgame army and be ready to fight on the next turn even if they manage to kill her.

Why doesn't anyone complain about the Phoenix. A 10 Fire 4 Air Phoenix commands vast powers of annihilation. It is also flying and immortal. I believe this is the main problem. No risk of loosing your pretender combined with mobility and destructive powers. But you can only be at one place at a time.

Jasper · #42 May 4th, 2004, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:
No offense intended to beta testers but thier opinions are not the end all of knowing knowledge

If you think about it, a beta-tester is almost certain to deny an alleged imbalance. If he agreed, then the imbalance would have been eliminated in the beta-testing.

Not the case at all. Most of my discussion around dominions 2 has been about various inbalances. This continues to be the case, and I don't think dominions is as balanced as many others apparently do.

It just happens that I think that clams and Vampire Queens are not problems.

Jasper · #43 May 4th, 2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
The advantage of the VQ is one of increased early expansion, from my viewpoint. IMO, any change to the VQ should be done to counteract this advantage.

Bayushi Tasogare

I disagree. The Vampire Queen is hardly alone in being able to do this, and in fact there are pretenders that can start conquering immediately.

Catquiet · #44 May 4th, 2004, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:
Originally posted by Catquiet:
The White Bull does very well at early expansion. The problem with the VQ is that she can go into battle without equiping any items, take a large chunk out of an elite endgame army and be ready to fight on the next turn even if they manage to kill her.

Why doesn't anyone complain about the Phoenix. A 10 Fire 4 Air Phoenix commands vast powers of annihilation. It is also flying and immortal. I believe this is the main problem. No risk of loosing your pretender combined with mobility and destructive powers. But you can only be at one place at a time.

The Phoenix does it's damage with spells and you know those spells are going to be either fire or lightning, new paths are too expensive for anything else. Low HPs and few item slots means there is no way to turn it into a supercombatant. Put a strong fighter in an elemental hauberk and you can take out the phoenix. The phoenix is fine as it is.

The Vampire Queen can have 30 protection, quickness, 18+ attack and defense, damage shields, and immunity to all elemental damage without any equipment at all. Add an armor piercing life drain attack which heals HPs + restores fatigue whenever she damages an enemy and you have an enemy that regains health faster than you can damage her. The VQ is not a game breaker but she does give more power for the points than any other pretender.

Raising the path cost of the VQ to 80 would be the simplest solution.

Jasper · #45 May 4th, 2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Why doesn't anyone complain about the Phoenix. A 10 Fire 4 Air Phoenix commands vast powers of annihilation. It is also flying and immortal. I believe this is the main problem. No risk of loosing your pretender combined with mobility and destructive powers. But you can only be at one place at a time.

The phoenix is alot more vulnerable, can't use items, is less flexible, and less potent for the cost. The phoenix is much more of a budget entry into fire and air magic than a supercombatant. IMHO Vampire queens fill a substantially different roll, and are in general more usefull.

Jasper · #46 May 4th, 2004, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catquiet:
The Vampire Queen can have 30 protection, quickness, 18+ attack and defense, damage shields, and immunity to all elemental damage without any equipment at all. Add an armor piercing life drain attack which heals HPs + restores fatigue whenever she damages an enemy and you have an enemy that regains health faster than you can damage her. The VQ is not a game breaker but she does give more power for the points than any other pretender.

IMHO you exaggerate your case. How are you getting 18+ attack and defense without equipment? How do you manage to cast invulnerability, quickness, several damage shields, and 3 elemental immunities?

Even then, what you describe isn't so incredibly potent (nor even IMHO the best way to field a VQ).
Other pretenders easily surpase this power, in particular due to much higher hitpoints, double her strength, and better attack/defense.

The VQ queen's strength isn't her brutishness, but rather her flexibility. Regeneration, enc 0, cold immunity, poison immunity, immortal, ethereal, flying, and stealthy.

Jasper · #47 May 4th, 2004, 05:57 PM

I had originally planned to stay out of this, as IMHO the debates over the Clam and VQ hasn't been constructive. However, as my name has been invoked I am now compelled to appear, as though drawn by invisible chains.

First. Yes, I am a beta tester, although I only become one recently. I like to think this doesn't make me partial, but instead just gives me an early peek at upcoming patches.

Now, perhaps I should know better, but I'm going to be frank and blunt in my opinions about Clams and VQs:

1) Clams. IMHO the context in which they can be abused just doesn't exist in Dominions. There is no way you can expect to sit unmolested for the 30-40 turns necessary, and the oppurtunity cost is extreme. I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Moreover, I feel the points arguing that clams are overpowered have been countered, and then merely reiterated. Could I be mistaken? You bet! But I am not interested in revisting the topic until new arguments are presented.

2) Vampire Queens. They are good, but IMHO those arguing she is unbalanced ignore her weaknesses. She is not particularily tough in combat, nor extraordinarily usefull in early expansion. I absolutely think there are better pretenders, and that Vampire Queens are simply popular.

On the other hand, given the oppurtunity I would make some changes to her:

-remove immunity to poison. doesn't seem thematic to me.
-add fire vulnerbility. Perhaps I've read to many White Wolf source books, but this seems thematic.
-remove need not eat. A trivial point, but still.
-Increase her magic path cost to 50 or 60.
-Allow her for less factions.

On the third hand... In general I think it's a better idea to improve weaker pretenders than to neuter the better ones.

[ May 04, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Kel · #48 May 4th, 2004, 06:01 PM

What makes a VQ a poor late game SC ? Please read on before responding !

Now, I can see where she might be a mediocre late game SC, due entirely due to her low(for an SC) hp. Otoh, her immortality goes some way to compensate for this.

I can see that you can more reliably put expensive equipment on a higher HP pretender but the number of built in effects on the VQ again, does something to compensate for this.

Maybe not entirely. I mean late, late game, I would rather have an artifact equipped, high HP chassis, I think.

But if VQ is the best early/mid game SC, how does she compare to other early/mid game chasses ? That is, if she is better than a white bull, say, in the early game and the mid game, instead of comparing her to specific late game pretenders, shouldn't we be comparing her to those early and mid game ones ?

IE, *if* she is better than some pretenders in the early game, the middle game AND the late game (after taking cost of paths and everything else into account, natch), that would classify her as being over-powered, clearly. I am not saying she is or is not better but to say that she is not better than every pretender in every situation in every phase of the game isn't really much of a declaration at all. A lot of the arguments about why she is not over-powered have focused on why she isn't invincible and that's a red herring.

- Kel

Kel · #49 May 4th, 2004, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:
I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel

Kristoffer O · #50 May 4th, 2004, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kel:

quote:
Originally posted by Jasper:
I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel

Yup. They also meet every third week in an old pub somewhere in Detroit to discuss how to govern the world without newbies noticing.

Those Jasper believes to be the best players are probably people he knows from MP games since the days of Dom1. A bit rude perhaps, but there were some remarks on the betas that were a bit rude as well.