I dont know how to quote like you guys do yet....
From Wranga
"Yes, such a legend exists. But it is mostly drawn from descriptions by MUCH later authors who didn't have personal experience in battle. Of course, some arrows falling onto phalanx could strike raised pikes and be accidentally deflected, but this was certainly rare, or Macedonian phalangistae wouldn't have shileds (and Assirians, of course)."
I've seen an reenactement that convinced me personally. The arrows coming in arent that fast having only gravity for momentum, so a defelction of as little as 10% would help keep you from getting stuck. A twenty foot peice of wood gets a pretty good vibration if you shake it. If nothing else you'd train your phalangites/pikemen to do it for morale reasons, so thay have something to do whilest thousands of arrows fall on them. We'll have to disagree
"And they are about the best pikemen in the game! Lack of formation concept makes for a lousy pikemen, unless you take steps to improve them in some other way..."
They worked. Just they werent the steamroller I was expecting.
"Don't draw conclusions from Hollywood, for Cthulhu's sake!"
Again I'll hastur disagree. While far from definative hollywood has been trying to make decent histio-porn for the past twenty years. They fail miserably most the time, but at least they talk to some historians before shooting. The movie Troy for example has the only footage I've ever seen of two phalanxes meeting (even if it lasts like 10 seconds). They're trying. My point was that until I saw that scene in Alexander I had never imagined a way to use an elephant against massed pointy things.
"Of course, much information that we have comes through Romans and they liked to portray enemies as inefficient buffons coming into battle in great mobs to be slaughtered by brave and agile Romans in shiny armor (much like today reports, if you think of it)."
I hastur really really disagree with this (concerning the romans). Reading Ceaser's dispatches to Rome you'd believe that every gaul was an eight foot tall woad covered, mouth foaming fanatic that took five pilums to drop (wildly exagrarating to make my point of course). Didnt the romans claim that a dacian falx could cut a legionaire in half through his shield? Descriptions painted of the jihadi's at fallujah given by the Us marines harldy painted their opponents as "inefficient buffons." I've always read that battelfield reports had a tendecy to overestimate the capabilties of even easily defeated foes. I'd have to say that a commander's after action reports of the enemy probably owe more to politics than reality even today.
"Wrong. First, they were used differently in different context"
Sure, we're discussing a 4,500 year period in the historic record. I'm positive that we could both come up with many specific examples to support our mutual views!
"for now let's not go into whether Macedonian sarissa should be classified as pike"
Please educate me. I always figured twenty foot pointy thing= 20 foot pointy thing.
"Still later, Romans turned to using pikes"
Actually I thought the Romans dropped the pike in the Marian reforms. Even Dom3 has early age Ermor with pikes.
"Swiss infantry was used mainly in attack - but they mainly used halberds"
Again, I'll disagree. weren't halbreds used by the front ranks in the same manner as the Landsnecht zwiehander, to chop up the other guys pikes?
"Swiss army almost never had cavalry of its own"
I thought the swiss spent most of their ascendent period fighting for the french who provided the cavalry?
"Landsknechts, on the other hands, were formed as pikemen"
Weren't the landsnechets copying the swiss to fill a need for mercenary pikes since the french largely monopolized the swiss and used them to spank everyone else?
"Gustavus Adolphus decreased both numbers and influence of pikes in his army"
Agreed one hundred percent! My point was that tightly massed formations of men with long pointy things were still being used after the introduciton of gunpoweder weapons. I think the consensus is that pikes were displaced by the adoption of the socket bayonet.
"which traditionally formed 8 ranks and didn't use pikes at all"
Maybe traditionl wsant such a wise choice of words. I think I was referenceing the spartans defeat at the hands of the sacred band. According to my memory the Spartans were using the "traditional" sixteen ranks while those sneaky thebans stacked themselves thirty two ranks deep. I promise I'm quoting somehting I read.
"half- or three-quarter-plate armors"
Wouldn't that be a good description of hoplite armor or the dendra panopoly?
I guess what I meant by offensive use was you'd want to be rushing forward to make skish ka bob of your opponents. I just can't imagine holding still and waiting for your opponents to skewer themselves on your pikes would be terribly effective in the majority of cases.
Ok, saying they were NEVER defensive weapons is a bit much. Especially since I brought up the role of pikes in the age of gunpowder. If you'll allow me to badly paraphrase Patton... "Defensive structures are a monument to the stupidity of man"
"And sorry for rant, by the way... "
No, I enjoyed it very much, you made some great points and I enjoyed it!
Re: Pike vs Cavalry
Linear Mode
