Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.

Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Soul Vortex is definitely a solution, but the Shedu does not come with any death, nor a body slot to enable the wearing of bone armor. At 80 points a path, this is probably not something you wish to add yourself, either.

[Blitz]

No infantry can go toe to toe with mammoths and expect to not take severe losses. There are virtually no infantry that can fight very well against Einheres, and temple guards are even more resource limited than Myrmidons.

So what you are telling me is that Vanheim gets better infantry, better cavalry, better fliers, and recruitable SC's and GE Arco gets... mystics and philosophers. Can I at least have my elephants back please? Uberchariot isn't enough, especially when you figure in the Vandjarls and those valkries who are all over your mystics and priestesses.

As for temple guards being more resource-intensive... at least you aren't operating under FORCED SLOTH. Let's not forget that Vanheim and Caelum get 1 and 3 free temperature picks respectively. And besides, who gives a crap about temple guards when you have wingless/mammoth.

Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.

For 466 points? This ain't Ermor buddy. The only way I can see a Shedu doing anything productive is by incorporating soul vortex. Take 80 point paths, a forced 5+ astral, and a 125 point base cost and you are investing a lot in something you could accomplish a lot cheaper with winged boots on an Oprah.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
So what you are telling me is that Vanheim gets better infantry, better cavalry, better fliers, and recruitable SC's and GE Arco gets... mystics and philosophers.

I think you are misusing the SC term. A vanadrott cannot take on an entire army by itself, which is the requirement for the SC term. Arco also has better and more affordable mages than Vanheim, so it's pretty much evens out.

Can I at least have my elephants back please? Uberchariot isn't enough, especially when you figure in the Vandjarls and those valkries who are all over your mystics and priestesses.

The valkyries won't be in your rear because you'll be bringing along a staff of storms. Chariots can also deal with valkyries as they never miss.

For 466 points? This ain't Ermor buddy.

Astral 6, earth 4 is all that's required for the spells I listed above. That's doable with order 3, prod 1 (It's not a golden age only pretender you realize), misfortune 2, dominion 6, and a castle.

[Blitz]

I think you are misusing the SC term. A vanadrott cannot take on an entire army by itself, which is the requirement for the SC term. Arco also has better and more affordable mages than Vanheim, so it's pretty much evens out.

Ever try a hangadrott with full gear, wraith sword, and soul vortex? Find me a better investment for 400 gold. I'll promise you one thing... it'll own the **** out of a Shedu any day.

The valkyries won't be in your rear because you'll be bringing along a staff of storms.

Sweet. Now my wind riders are 125 gold heavy cavalry and my icarids are 28 gold peLasts! I'm sure my ground forces will be more than a match for einheres and vans.

Astral 6, earth 4 is all that's required for the spells I listed above. That's doable with order 3, prod 1 (It's not a golden age only pretender you realize), misfortune 2, dominion 6, and a castle.

You realize that pretender loses to a hangadrott right? Just checking. Feel free to test it out yourself.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
]Ever try a hangadrott with full gear, wraith sword, and soul vortex? Find me a better investment for 400 gold. I'll promise you one thing... it'll own the **** out of a Shedu any day.

That it will kill a shedu is really irrelevant, since you don't pick a Shedu for killing other thugs, you pick it to kill normal troops very well. I wouldn't bother putting a full set of equipment on it in the first place either, since there are any number of spells that can deal with a unit with such low hitpoints. Counting only the 400 gold you spent, then two mystics with the appropriate skills should do. Since he will likely have lightning immunity, then I would bring along a fire 2 mystic, and a water mystic. One casts incinerate or astral fires, the other casts frozen heart. Sure you can make him immune to three of the elements, but then your equipment will lack either magic resistance, regeneration or luck. If we also include the gem costs of all that equipment you put on him, then arco can start to bring along golems with similar equipment.

]Sweet. Now my wind riders are 125 gold heavy cavalry and my icarids are 28 gold peLasts! I'm sure my ground forces will be more than a match for einheres and vans.

Well, since Vanheim would have brought storms even if you hadn't, it's doesn't change the issue at all. And yes, your ground forces can be a match for his since you will also have much more magical research completed, and have the ability to use communion.

You realize that pretender loses to a hangadrott right? Just checking. Feel free to test it out yourself. [/QB]

So? It's not a pretender that's made to take out other SCs. It's made to kill normal troops. Arco

[Blitz]

quote:
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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.
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Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you?

[ June 21, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Scott Hebert]

A few things people have missed about the Shedu that I think bear mentioning:

1) It's unique in that it is the only Pretender in the game to get both Earth and Astral magic naturally. This means that, if you want high Dominion, Earth magic, and Astral magic, he is the best choice for pretender.

2) He plays into the natural strengths of GE Arco. Magical research is one of GE's best strengths. Another is the fact that it gets Air, Earth, and Astral gems naturally. This allows for synergy.

3) He is a very multifaceted Pretender, for being a nonhumanoid. Early-game, he _can_ take provinces. Mid-game, he can research, site-search, forge Crystal Coins, Dwarven Hammers, and other utility items. Late-game, he can be a Golem factory or continue in the mid-game roles.

4) His blessings are very mage-friendly. While it's true that Arco gets no 'real' sacred mages, there is always the Shroud of the Battle Saint. You have to decide if Reinvigoration + Magic Resistance on Armor that costs 5S is good enough for you, though.

Do I think all of this warrants his cost? Well, I think he may be overpriced. Bringing him down to 75 (to equal the Great Mother) might be a good idea. I will point out, though, that no one can beat him in his bailiwick, not even the human pretenders, and he's far more survivable than even the giants.

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482

Note this is without taking Misfortune, and taking Growth-1 (which I'm sure most people would find a waste).

This would make the Shroud:
5 Prot
0 Enc
+3 MRL (this isn't going to do much)
Reinvig 2
+1 MR

For 5 Astral Pearls. This path selection would also directly benefit any sacred mages you run across (Amazon Priestesses, Shamen, Witches, etc.).

Should the Shedu be lowered to 75 points, I could afford one more scale and a 6 Dominion. If I took Misfortune-2, I could go to Earth-6, increasing the bless effect and making the effect of some 'Construction summons' (Enliven Statues) more effect.

In any event, I think the Shedu offers more than people are seeing right now.

[Blitz]

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482

Pretender: Nataraja
Cost: Squat
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 222
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total Cost: 0 + 160 + 80 + 244 + 21 = 505

Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:13: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

You both picked the same castle, and the nataraja is certainly not as useful in the early game as the Shedu. That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile. What about a 3 player VP game on Brittain for example?

[Blitz]

Or lol even better...

Pretender: Wurm
Cost: 75
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Air 1 Nature 1
Cost: 100
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total cost: 426 points (spend the rest as you wish)

Now you got a much better expander, and later in the game he can sit in the lab and forge rainbow armor instead of shroud of the battle saint!

That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile.

He's trying to demonstrate that in order to get a earth 4 /astral 4 blessing on your mystics through use of a shroud of the battle saint, the Shedu is the best pretender choice. Why one would go to such lengths to achieve such a thing is irrelevant. Clearly the Nataraja is superior, even under the conditions most favorable to the Shedu. You could also achieve similar results with a Son of the Sun (the astral Version), which is of course available to arcoscophile.

No, even when seeking the allpowerful earth/astral blessing, the Shedu still sucks. Sorry.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]