newest beta patch?

[Q]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Q:
I strongly ask all people with some influence on MM: ask him to make such changes only as an option or in a way that can be modded back and not in an irreversible way.

Contray to popular myth, there are no people with any special connection to Malfador. Even among the beta team members, we have all the same discussions that occur in the general forum. We throw around ideas, and have debtes that sometimes degenerate into arguments. And in the end ANYONE can email Malfador if they have a suggestion or a complaint. Nobody's emails get any more notice than anyone elses.

Geoschmo

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Thank you for your reply. However I believe you underestimate the value of beeing a beta-tester. I can't imagine that the opinion of a beta-tester is disregarded by MM. For my e-mails I am not even sure if he reads them. (Edit: I take that back: he read my e-mail and replied to it! In the reply he says that the conVersion of a ship with destroyed master computer is a bug. Well, I am not sure about that but such an obvious "bug" that persisted for almost two years??)

One more question for those who want a counter for the allegience subverter: Have you ever thought to play games without computer combat?? This can be selected in the game setting without any modding or other changes! You would get almost the same as the proposed change in the next patch, unless the master computer is destroyed by chance by any ordinary weapon.

[ October 13, 2002, 07:32: Message edited by: Q ]

[Taera]

Q - now thats a good point!

Originally posted by geoschmo:

At one pont Mark was using Destroyers with DUC's and EASILY handling fleets twice the size of his fleets with Lioght Cruisers and suprior weapons and shield technology. And doing it against two other empires simultaneously. It's only been by intensive cooperation between several races, and a couple of strategic mistakes on his part that we were able to take advantage of that has finally brought his empire under check.

Geo, you accurately describe the first stage of the fighting between you, me and Tesco, but you're wrong in just attributing it to the Talisman. Half your problem was not just that my DUCs were hitting, but that your PPBs weren't. The Research I'd saved by not going straight to PPBs went into ECM, whereas none of your or his early ships seemed to have Combat Sensors. Had you had DUCs with Combat Sensors instead of PPBs without, I think the early fighting would have gone as the current battles do now that you're actually hitting (or in your case ramming) - that is, the Talisman giving me an edge, but not a completely decisive one.

I say this not as criticism of your play (because I know I've grossly simplified the research choices available to all of us), but to illustrate the general point that properly planning your counter to the Talisman makes a huge difference. You know the Religious player is going to emphasise his strengths by building hard-to-hit ships and staying out at long range. So if you see him as the early game threat, make sure you can *hit* his ships before you start researching all the cool weapons.

I'm genuinely curious, by-the-way, about what you think my strategic mistakes were. Or is it too early to be revealing that sort of information?

But the rest of what you said is right on. I believe it's only because of the ten planet start that Mark was able to get the Tailsman as fast as he did. In a simgle planet start it would have likely taken him so long to get that the advantage it gave him would not have been quite so pronounced.

Definitely true. As it was, I only got the Talisman a turn or two before fighting first broke out, and had to carry out a frantic refitting program in order to have ships ready to fight. Normally, developing towards the Talisman would have to be a much longer term goal. You couldn't afford to commit to spending the hundreds of thousands of point necessary until you'd got several other key technologies first.

Mark

[Mylon]

Originally posted by Q:
(Edit: I take that back: he read my e-mail and replied to it! In the reply he says that the conVersion of a ship with destroyed master computer is a bug. Well, I am not sure about that but such an obvious "bug" that persisted for almost two years??)

At least he replied to your email. I sent him one about Dungeon Oddesey and the production/facility upgrade in Space Empires IV. Maybe the Dungeon Oddesey email was a tad too scornful...

[ October 14, 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: Mylon ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
Geo, you accurately describe the first stage of the fighting between you, me and Tesco, but you're wrong in just attributing it to the Talisman. Half your problem was not just that my DUCs were hitting, but that your PPBs weren't. The Research I'd saved by not going straight to PPBs went into ECM, whereas none of your or his early ships seemed to have Combat Sensors. Had you had DUCs with Combat Sensors instead of PPBs without, I think the early fighting would have gone as the current battles do now that you're actually hitting (or in your case ramming) - that is, the Talisman giving me an edge, but not a completely decisive one.

I say this not as criticism of your play (because I know I've grossly simplified the research choices available to all of us), but to illustrate the general point that properly planning your counter to the Talisman makes a huge difference. You know the Religious player is going to emphasise his strengths by building hard-to-hit ships and staying out at long range. So if you see him as the early game threat, make sure you can *hit* his ships before you start researching all the cool weapons.

Ah, but what you could not know is that while you were spending points researching the ECM, I was spending points researching military science.

We had a decisive battle at around turn 30. I went back and looked at the old game files cause I wanted to be sure. I had a fleet of 60-70 ships, over 40 of which were LC's. You had a fleet of 30-35 ships, all destoyers, except for about 8-10 LC's. Almost every ship in my fleet was veteren, trained to 20%, and the fleet was as well. SO that alone would have countered your ECM 2. So without the tailsman there would have been a slight advatage in your fleet having the smaller ships, but I had twice as many ships, and they were larger. Probably 4 or five times as many weapons total for the fleet. Your DUC's were a bit stronger than what I had at the time. but my ships had organic armor, so they could take a lot more punishment that your standard armor ships.

The result without the Tailsman would have been at worst significant losses on both sides, with me being ultimatly victorious. Instead you destroyed everyone of my ships and lost 5 or 6 of your own. THe Tailsman was clearly the pivital factor in that battle.

I'm genuinely curious, by-the-way, about what you think my strategic mistakes were. Or is it too early to be revealing that sort of information?

Your first mistake was in not finishing me off when you had the chance. Your fleet wiped out several of my homewolrds, and then inexplicably, from my perspective left. Now to be fair I do not know what other pressing issues you had to deal with at the moment. You could have been facing a threat from another quarter, or perhaps your fleet was running low on fuel. I don't know. But you did not return immediaetly to finish me off.

Second, you allowed Tesco to negotiate that temporary cease fire. I was stunned that you would accept such an obvious ploy in the middle of a shooting war. But it allowed me to prepare for taking advantage of your third ciritcal error.

Which was not putting SDD's on your top of the line warhips. Retrofitting nearly my entire fleet to heavily armored organic boarding/ramming ships was a total desperation tactic on my part. It was the most cost effective thing I could think of at the moment to deal with the tailsman's. If you had employed SDD's, my ships would have had to be given orders to ram exclusivly. And while they would have been somewhat effective, the combination of your speed advantage and repulser beams would have limited their effectivness considerably. (That was a brilliant combination by the way in addition to the tailsman. Well done. ) But not having SDD'd on your part meant that I could manage to capture a couple of your ships early in the battle, which caused a cascade effect. Because now the ships I just captured became the strongest ships in my fleet, so the rest of your ships concentrated their fire on them, leaving the rest of my boarding/rammers unmolested. You destroyed most of the ships I captured before the battles in which they were captured were over, but they greatly reduced the overall caualties of my fleet in total.

Definitely true. As it was, I only got the Talisman a turn or two before fighting first broke out, and had to carry out a frantic refitting program in order to have ships ready to fight. Normally, developing towards the Talisman would have to be a much longer term goal. You couldn't afford to commit to spending the hundreds of thousands of point necessary until you'd got several other key technologies first.

Mark

Yes, and I attempted to take you out before you developed the Tailsman, and might have been succesful too had I not made a critical mistake of my own and miscalculated the amount of minesweepers in my initial foray into yoru homesystem. Losing that fleet set me back long enough for you to retrofit your fleet and resulted in that disasterous battle (for me) around turn 30.

This has been one of the most mental games I have ever been involved in. Win or lose it's been a pleasure.

Geoschmo

[Mephisto]

News from the current beta patch:

Version 1.81:
1. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will work on all target types,
again.
2. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will fail against a ship with
a Master Computer (regardless if that component is damaged or
not). It does not matter if there is a Bridge on the ship.
3. Fixed - AI will no longer launch "Anti-Planet" Drones in combat.
4. Added - Option to strategems to control how many drones are launched
per target in combat.
5. Changed - You can now give drones orders to Attack warp points. This
is essentially the same as telling them to warp through
and attack anything on the other side. Any survivors can then
be given new orders.

[Phoenix-D]

"1. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will work on all target types,
again."

Much better.

"2. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will fail against a ship with
a Master Computer (regardless if that component is damaged or
not). It does not matter if there is a Bridge on the ship."

heh. I take it the other part didn't quite fix it.

"3. Fixed - AI will no longer launch "Anti-Planet" Drones in combat." Some help, some not.

"4. Added - Option to strategems to control how many drones are launched
per target in combat." Good.


"5. Changed - You can now give drones orders to Attack warp points. This
is essentially the same as telling them to warp through
and attack anything on the other side. Any survivors can then
be given new orders."

Whoohoo!

Phoenix-D

[Q]

"Version 1.81:
1. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will work on all target types,
again."

Very reasonable (of course only in my opinion).

"2. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will fail against a ship with
a Master Computer (regardless if that component is damaged or
not). It does not matter if there is a Bridge on the ship."

Of course I can't have all my wishes fulfilled. I will have to find a solution for myself (probably eliminating master computer and computer virus together from the game).

"3. Fixed - AI will no longer launch "Anti-Planet" Drones in combat.
4. Added - Option to strategems to control how many drones are launched
per target in combat.
5. Changed - You can now give drones orders to Attack warp points. This
is essentially the same as telling them to warp through
and attack anything on the other side. Any survivors can then
be given new orders."

Now these are the kind of changes I welcome!

[ October 15, 2002, 19:20: Message edited by: Q ]

[geoschmo]

5. Changed - You can now give drones orders to Attack warp points. This is essentially the same as telling them to warp through and attack anything on the other side. Any survivors can then be given new orders.

And since the new orders can be to attack another warp point, viola recon drones. Only limited by their supply range, which can be greatly increased in mods.

Geoschmo

[TerranC]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
And since the new orders can be to attack another warp point, viola recon drones. Only limited by their supply range, which can be greatly increased in mods.

Geoschmo

"Captain, we're approaching the warp point now."

"Sir, sensors are picking up something small and metallic, closing on us fast."

"On Screen"

"It looks like a drone sir."

"I recommend we raise shields sir."

"It doesn't even know us! I'm sure it's an automated welcoming beacon!"

"But sir, it has a antimatter warhead, and it has been engaged."

"I said It doesn't even know us! I'm sure it's an automated welcoming beacon!"

"*sigh* Whatever you say sir."