OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[Renegade 13]

Imperator Fyron said:

Minor nit-pick... while the US military can apparently detain foreigners indefinitely, the police could certainly not do this to a US citizen...

Thanks for clearing that up Fyron, I must have gotten my information screwed up in my head. Not the first time that's happened...

One more thing though...have any of you heard of the Canadian citizen who was travelling to the US, and yet was detained by the US immigration, or homeland security, or some such organization, and then deported to Syria!! He was kept incarcerated by US forces without just cause, simply because he used to live in Syria. He was a Canadian citizen, and yet some braindead organization deported him to Syria! Come on. That's just ridiculous.

I will admit, the Canadian government cooperated with the US somewhat in this, and for that I have no respect for them. Now, Canada was also responsible for that. I admit it. I'm not so rabidly patriotic that I can not see the truth.

Point is, the US does many things that are against basic human rights. Other countries do too. Canada probably does so as well. There are many problems with the world today, and we can't solve them all. That doesn't mean we have to be rabidly patriotic and stick our head in the sand though.

By the way, the name of the Canadian that was deported to Syria was Maher Arrar (not sure of the spelling) just in case anyone wanted to look that up.

[Renegade 13]

Gandalf Parker said:

Not indefinately. There is a very specific time limit before they must be charged with something and see a judge. One of the very good parts of the original constitution. Of course there were 1700+ arrested during the republican convention and held for 60 hours.

I thought the limit for holding without just cause was 48 hours, not 60. Also, doesn't the Patriot Act give the police or military the right to detain without just cause if they believe they "may" be a threat to the security of the US? Or am I wrong again?

[AMF]

Patriotism?

There are different kinds of patriotism. I think Starhawk Subscribes to the "Ann Coulter" school of patriotism ("my country right or wrong and if you say wrong you're a traitor and we should kill you and convert you to xtianity anyways...!)

Forgive me, but I always get tickled when I think of ann and I have to bring out one of my favorite Coulter quotes:

"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01

For more Coulter tidbits, see: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...terwisdom.html

Raging Deadstar said:
Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

[AMF]

Actually, under the Patriot Act, I beleive you can be detained indefinitely w/o access to legal counsel if they say that terrorism is involved (oh, and all of the evidence, depositions, and the very fact that you've been taken away can be kept secret IIRC...)

Scared? You should be. (EDIT: and you know THEY'RE watching these Boards and recording everything...if I dissappear suddenly, you know why...)

I'll try and drum up some references to confirm or deny this, but I'm pretty sure it is currently the case.

[Starhawk]

Renegade 13 said:

Thanks for clearing that up Fyron, I must have gotten my information screwed up in my head. Not the first time that's happened...

One more thing though...have any of you heard of the Canadian citizen who was travelling to the US, and yet was detained by the US immigration, or homeland security, or some such organization, and then deported to Syria!! He was kept incarcerated by US forces without just cause, simply because he used to live in Syria. He was a Canadian citizen, and yet some braindead organization deported him to Syria! Come on. That's just ridiculous.

I will admit, the Canadian government cooperated with the US somewhat in this, and for that I have no respect for them. Now, Canada was also responsible for that. I admit it. I'm not so rabidly patriotic that I can not see the truth.

Point is, the US does many things that are against basic human rights. Other countries do too. Canada probably does so as well. There are many problems with the world today, and we can't solve them all. That doesn't mean we have to be rabidly patriotic and stick our head in the sand though.

By the way, the name of the Canadian that was deported to Syria was Maher Arrar (not sure of the spelling) just in case anyone wanted to look that up.

Okay Renegade I'm sorry here but that whole Canadian citizen deal is just BS as a justification for how "evil" we americans are I had a friend who was detained by the RCMP and kept for over four hours of questioning because of one oops in his passport so political mistakes happen on both sides of the border

Oh and Canada has a military so weak it can barely defend it's own country and relies on allies for everything (not an insult here I'm just saying) so they couldn't go about any serious wars if they wanted too.

"Patriotism?

There are different kinds of patriotism. I think Starhawk Subscribes to the "Ann Coulter" school of patriotism ("my country right or wrong and if you say wrong you're a traitor and we should kill you and convert you to xtianity anyways...!)

Forgive me, but I always get tickled when I think of ann and I have to bring out one of my favorite Coulter quotes:

"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01"

Oh give me a BREAK! I even SAID that the US has it's flaws I just said I'd take it over any other country any day that is hardly a "kill or convert" policy, My problem with you foreigners that go whining about how "evil" we are have no right to judge us when no doubt your country has it's own sorted political crap so why as I said why don't you limit your whining to your own country?
And NO I am not accusing all the folks that disagree with US policy here of being whiney I am just saying folks that are comparing us to "The Evil Empire" and crap like that.

"You might want to be aware of who you are talking about if you are including me. Although there should NOT be such a thing as a list of qualifications which give the right to comment, if there WERE such a list then many of us would qualify quite heavily. Hmmmm lets see... US citizen, vietnam vet, military retired, tax payer, functional family man, home owner. Thats quite a list of things I can put me on the "politicians listen to me" list. About the only thing I could add to it that I dont have at the moment is that Im no longer a "small business owner" or "CEO of a large corporation". Thats just me. I thought Id clarify it abit."

You were ABSOLUTELY not included Gandalf, I was making that remark about those "we need a revolution" folks that seek violence in change instead of positive changes.
If you dislike the US government and are a US citizen and can effect change for the better if enough of you get together then by all means do it.
But there has never been a positive revolution before or since the First American Revolution as revolutions tear countries apart and leave them ripe for other nations to pick apart, not to mention find me two Americans with enough firepower to take on an armored division and then maybe I'll feel threatened by any pathetic attempt at revolution, until then shutup about a violent revolution and instead try to make positive changes and lead the community through peaceful and educated talks about how they can improve things and NOT just whine about how evil the government is and how evil the US military is and blah blah blah ad nauseum.

I am just sick and tired of people acting like the United States is evil, I'm sorry to say we have earned an unfortunate reputation as a nation due to stupid things that we've done but I find it convenient that those very people who say how evil we are never bother pointing out whatever the US has done their country has likely done it LOOONG before and a LOT WORSE (that mainly goes for the older nations like many of those in the MIdeast and Europe) so please save me that saints and angels bit.
Trust me the US could use improvement, mainly in the department of trying to do anything in the world, if you ask me we should pretty much do what European nations do and say "Screw the lot" and stay home, OH BUT WAIT when we tried that the world whined about us NOT doing anything......either way it seems to me we are screwed in the eyes of the world.

So basically my political view on the world today:

Politics 101 the world sucks every nation sucks to someone it's just that the US being the most powerful sucker on the block gets the biggest load when it sucks LOL


And I'm sorry there is a difference between changing your mind and changing your tune during the same speech in one sentence Kerry will be all
"Yes I voted for the war in Iraq"
the next sentence he'll be going
"The war in Iraq is wrong and I've said so from the start"
Or similar (I'm not good at quoting from memory) so I dislike that in anybody but it would be worse in a president.

Do I think Bush is perfect LOL hahahahahahhahahaha muahahahaha heheeeeheeehee ahem cough anyhoo "Strategery" lol. sorry

What I was trying to say is NON POLITICS I love my country so back off.....I'm sure you wouldn't like every political screwup your country ever made to be judged forever would you?

[Starhawk]

Oh and BTW WAKE UP the world is run by power hungry buisnessmen NOT just the United States so please stop using our power hungry jerks to make u all look evil just because they happen to b richer then your money hungry jerks....thank you.

And I stopped cussing so please stop with the "tone it down" stuff I already did I said sorry publicly and I edited out the cussing.

As I said I was tired and frustrated so I got hot faster then I should have.....can we let that go now please?


"Again its not the facts, its the way they are worded and looked at by others than the person who keeps saying them louder and louder. And civil disorders in those territories has caused us to send in troops (same as the british empire).

The scarey part is that most of those were taken in war. They were taken to move out the government ruling them, we stayed in control in order to "lead them to a proper government", (sound familiar?) and now decades later they still arent free nations or states. Im sure its all in their best interest but then most such actions by countries usually are as far as the nation doing it says. "

Yeah I know I probobly blew a lot of my credibility out the window with the hostile flame and I already said sorry so you are right about the way I phrased things.

Well I do hope that those nations can someday either become states of their own will or become self reliant enough to be an independant nation but until then I just hope they are happy

Now as to the line about "Us giving up on Afghanistan" what the heck news have you been watching

FIRST FREE ELECTIONS EVER are already under way there, that doesn't sound like a nation of dozens of small fifedomes to me?

OH and there are still over 100,000 US service personnell in Afghanistan, pretty much between there and Iraq the bulk of the US armed forces are deployed. There is also a UN peacekeeper contingent in Afghanistan so the US "military" should back out as soldiers are NOT peacekeepers and it's not their duty.

[AMF]

Starhawk said:
My problem with you foreigners that go whining about how "evil" we are have no right to judge us when no doubt your country has it's own sorted political crap so why as I said why don't you limit your whining to your own country?

Well, since this was directed at me, I feel obliged to step up and say I am a US citizen, I was in Iraq for the first five weeks of the war (as an analyst working with the Marines), I work for the US government, and I, like many people, got taken in by the lies of this administration vis-a-vis the Iraq war. Oh, I was also in the mideast for the Afghan war, which I still beleive was the right war at the right time. Iraq was based on intentional lies. Going to war is not something one should do lightly, and if a president lies about it, he should be kicked out.

Now, let's stop with the ad hominens and actually debate the issues.

[Starhawk]

I agree with you that Iraq probobly shouldn't have happened my point is we are there now and we can't abandon them and still feel right with ourselves, at least I don't think I would feel proud of a country that backs out after it made a mistake and doesn't try to fix it.

We are there it sucks but we have to see this through or Iraq will become an even worse bloodbath then it is now that would make me sick to be honest.

The Afghan war was the right thing at the right time and it's good that we are still there in a more limited capacity because it's a way of ensuring Afghanistan stays independant and hopefully someday prospers.

Like I said I am exausted I am brainshot and I already said I probobly worded things very poorly. Sorry......again....yet.....again.....oy.

I'm 17 I'm young and I have hope for the future of my country, it's seen bad times before and with any luck it will rise again to a position of respect instead of paranoia and hate.

[AMF]

Shoot man, I said some awfully nasty things too. It's the season, ya know? Sorry if I was rude - and I'm sure I was.

Hard to keep one;s cool when it's ten days till the election. First one I've ever gotten THIS worked up about. I'm sure I've lost some friends here and in person lately being a blowhard in yer face type...

Totally agree about Iraq - must fix it now that we're there.

Starhawk said:
I agree with you that Iraq probobly shouldn't have happened my point is we are there now and we can't abandon them and still feel right with ourselves, at least I don't think I would feel proud of a country that backs out after it made a mistake and doesn't try to fix it.

We are there it sucks but we have to see this through or Iraq will become an even worse bloodbath then it is now that would make me sick to be honest.

The Afghan war was the right thing at the right time and it's good that we are still there in a more limited capacity because it's a way of ensuring Afghanistan stays independant and hopefully someday prospers.

Like I said I am exausted I am brainshot and I already said I probobly worded things very poorly. Sorry......again....yet.....again.....oy.

I'm 17 I'm young and I have hope for the future of my country, it's seen bad times before and with any luck it will rise again to a position of respect instead of paranoia and hate.

[Starhawk]

I'm sorry too for the hostile tone I took about Iraq a girl who I consider a dear friend lost her boyfriend in Iraq and I agree with her that his death would be a waste if nothing came of it for the Iraqi people.