Remove Curses and Horror Marks?

[KermNelson]

Hi guys ...
Maybe NT Jedi and I just enjoy this mental exercise, I hope it doesn't bother you too much.

NTJedi … You have an opinion:
“anytime you play any game outside of the game rules for your benefit it's cheating”
I disagree. I have another opinion:
“If you argue that mods are allowed by game code and therefore not cheating, then since manual saves are allowed by game code they too are not cheating.”
I believe I am playing the game within the gamecode because the game allows it and therefore it can not be cheating the game. As I’ve already stated I don’t believe I can cheat a machine – an inanimate object. (Illwinter is obviously aware that players have developed a save/reload workarounds and I’m not aware that they have discouraged them nor am I aware that players are in anyway breaching their EULA by doing the workaround.)
If however I was in multiplayer with other humans where the expectation was that there would be no hidden manipulation of the game and I did do hidden manipulation then I feel I would be cheating the players but the game is simply code that I’d figured out how to manipulate. The key difference is the effect of my actions on other beings not my actions with the machine.
If I choose to save and reload a game to improve my results that is what I’m doing I don't consider it cheating. I consider it trial and error testing to determine the best strategy without wasting massive amounts of time in replaying a game to a similar point. The game I am playing in single player mode exists solely for my purposes. Neither my computer nor the game's software is any form of life or being and until AI’s approach human complexity and start to develop and roughly “think” for themselves they have no rights to being-personhood. I can not cheat them. Once we feel/sense/believe they become beings then we can attempt to interact with them responsibly.
As for your opinion on what I think of mods, like the rest of this discussion you seem to think your opinion has some greater significance: it doesn’t to me. It is simply your opinion. I’ve been playing games since I bought my own Apple II+ in the early 80’s and I’ve been enjoying many companies’ mods including Illwinter’s Dom3 modding ability. Much like a book the author writes the gamecode but the user (as long as they don’t break the license) uses the game how they want to - enjoying it. I consider Mod friendly code simply a wise thing to do to allow creative players to get greater enjoyment out of the game. I think it gives some players further incentive to buy the game and therefore leads to greater game sales. It also creates a positive feedback loop including players’ creative feedback to the developers.

BTW I’ve never save/reloaded in Dom3 it’s too much bother. If I had not realized I could Mod the game to make my learning curve easier and more enjoyable to me I simply would not have bought the game. I play the game to enjoy exploring and learning how the game plays. I’ve found I like games with cheat codes and games that I can Mod. I know I am strengthening my position relative to the AI but it doesn’t bother me one bit. Games are created with AI difficulty settings precisely to allow players to choose how hard a learning curve they experience. I simply prefer to have the AI play consistently and increase my starting strength to decrease the learning curve and enjoy the learning process.

[NTJedi]

KermNelson said:
NTJedi … You have an opinion:
“anytime you play any game outside of the game rules for your benefit it's cheating”

It's not an opinion... you are changing decided future results for the benefit of winning. Providing yourself an unfair advantage during the game against any opponents human or computer AI is cheating. Just because the AI opponents cannot complain against cheating actions doesn't mean the cheating actions don't exist.

Heck based on your fantasy opinions it's impossible to cheat in a singleplayer game. LOL

KermNelson said:
I disagree. I have another opinion:
“If you argue that mods are allowed by game code and therefore not cheating, then since manual saves are allowed by game code they too are not cheating.”

Manual saves can be done for any PC_game, how those save games are used determine whether it's cheating. Mods can be used within the game, but how those mods are used determine whether or not it's cheating.

KermNelson said:
I believe I am playing the game within the gamecode because the game allows it and therefore it can not be cheating the game.

You could also play darts and get a bullseye every single time by not throwing the darts and just pushing the dart into the bullseye. In your fantasy opinion world you would fall asleep at night believing you're one great dart player... when in reality you are only fooling yourself.

KermNelson said:
As I’ve already stated I don’t believe I can cheat a machine – an inanimate object.

Just because you're playing against a machine doesn't mean it's not possible to cheat. Your opponents may be computer code yet they are still opponents. To make a game even more difficult for an already disadvantage AI opponent is just pathetic.

KermNelson said:
(Illwinter is obviously aware that players have developed a save/reload workarounds and I’m not aware that they have discouraged them nor am I aware that players are in anyway breaching their EULA by doing the workaround.)

The save/reload option has been discussed for many years... and the reload option remains left out. If Illwinter felt it was necessary they would have included it.

KermNelson said:
If however I was in multiplayer with other humans where the expectation was that there would be no hidden manipulation of the game and I did do hidden manipulation then I feel I would be cheating the players but the game is simply code that I’d figured out how to manipulate. The key difference is the effect of my actions on other beings not my actions with the machine.

I see another point you are missing... when someone is cheating whether it's against other human players or against AI opponents they are not only being UNFAIR to their opponents but they are also lying to themselves on the actual skills of their gameplay. Unfortunately many of these individuals continue to cheat because they cannot face losing.

KermNelson said:
If I choose to save and reload a game to improve my results that is what I’m doing I don't consider it cheating. I consider it trial and error testing to determine the best strategy without wasting massive amounts of time in replaying a game to a similar point.

Well if that's true then why don't you try my suggestion. For your next 10 games of each PC_game use the save/reload to change the future anytime you win a major battle. This way you can find the best strategy for making a recovery after major losses and/or important commanders/mages. I'm sure you've spent the last 25 years finding the fastest winning strategy... so it's time you find the best way to recover after major losses.
Hmmm... something tells me you couldn't stomach such a learning strategy.

KermNelson said: The game I am playing in single player mode exists solely for my purposes. Neither my computer nor the game's software is any form of life or being and until AI’s approach human complexity and start to develop and roughly “think” for themselves they have no rights to being-personhood. I can not cheat them. Once we feel/sense/believe they become beings then we can attempt to interact with them responsibly.

Your actions of using a save/reload to change an already decided future provides you a PERMANENT CONTINOUS UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

KermNelson said:
As for your opinion on what I think of mods, like the rest of this discussion you seem to think your opinion has some greater significance: it doesn’t to me. It is simply your opinion. I’ve been playing games since I bought my own Apple II+ in the early 80’s and I’ve been enjoying many companies’ mods including Illwinter’s Dom3 modding ability.

If you were so true to the save/reload option for the purpose of strategic reasons then you would have been using the save/reload for the opposite method of improving your strategy after major losses. Unfortunately the save/reload you use during games is to provide you the constant victory or more importantly the way to avoid facing a loss.
I've been playing PC_games longer then you and surprised even at your age you would use the save/reload just to win games and then try and hide it by saying it's for strategic reasons. If it was for strategic reasons then you would be using the save/reload in the opposite manor I've described earlier.

KermNelson said:
Much like a book the author writes the gamecode but the user (as long as they don’t break the license) uses the game how they want to - enjoying it.

Much like a book the reader can read the last ten pages or google the internet to discover the secret killer or answer to the riddles... but in your world this is just a strategic method to save time.

KermNelson said:
I consider Mod friendly code simply a wise thing to do to allow creative players to get greater enjoyment out of the game. I think it gives some players further incentive to buy the game and therefore leads to greater game sales. It also creates a positive feedback loop including players’ creative feedback to the developers.

Yes, mods are a great tool... like any other tool they can be used to provide an unfair advantage if used incorrectly.

KermNelson said:
BTW I’ve never save/reloaded in Dom3 it’s too much bother. If I had not realized I could Mod the game to make my learning curve easier and more enjoyable to me I simply would not have bought the game. I play the game to enjoy exploring and learning how the game plays. I’ve found I like games with cheat codes and games that I can Mod. I know I am strengthening my position relative to the AI but it doesn’t bother me one bit.

I actually do the opposite and using map edit commands make the computer opponents significantly stronger. Instead of fighting a tiger from the local zoo(default_game)... I'm fighting a prehistoric sabre tooth tiger.

KermNelson said:
Games are created with AI difficulty settings precisely to allow players to choose how hard a learning curve they experience. I simply prefer to have the AI play consistently and increase my starting strength to decrease the learning curve and enjoy the learning process.

Mods actually aren't needed even for the worst players. Simply play a very large map requiring 40% of the victory points, choose land nations for AI opponents(not ERMOR, Atlantis or Argatha), human plays a water nation, map has 40% water with no lakes and set AI difficulty on easy. No mods needed and a very easy game for the human player.

[Endoperez]

NTJedi said:
Don't worry... other individuals such as yourself cannot accept the idea of playing a game and losing thus resort to cheating via the save/reload or sometimes using 'cheat codes' which allows them to receive extra resources, items, etc.; .

Hey now! That's just rude and unnecessary. "Cheating", that I'd call "learning to play the game" in this case, IS NOT EQUAL to not being able to lose.

I play rogulikes, and although I used to savescum I decided it takes away the fun, and then noticed I learn faster when I HAVE to, to survive. I completed ADOM once, without savescumming. But I do cheat in games. I even cheat in Dominions - I have a mod that lets me cast Wish and Gift of Reason and any other spell I ever decide to test, as needed, at turn 1 for 1 gem. I do it to test things, such as how fire bless and weapon with multiple attacks work together.

I'm not sure if I said it already, but I agree with the poster - Illwinter's next game, and Stardock's not-MoM game, etc etc should have a save/load feature, unless they are like roguelikes, or like Dwarf Fortress. I don't know what your problem is, but could you at least be civil about it? [/mean]

[Agrajag]

Dwarf Fortress now comes with autosave and autosavebackup, so you can have the game save every season change, and have the game save those saves, so you can go back in time if you want to. (it even organizes them nicely by year, season and region.)

[Endoperez]

Agrajag said:
Dwarf Fortress now comes with autosave and autosavebackup, so you can have the game save every season change, and have the game save those saves, so you can go back in time if you want to. (it even organizes them nicely by year, season and region.)

But I don't use that feature. I said that it should have save feature unless it's like Dwarf Fortress, which is more about the adventure that is playing the game than the feeling of beating the system. I've never had trouble keeping my dwarves alive. I understand why someone attempting to build Orthanc or something would want a save feature, though. What with the exploding booze, melting cookery and such occupational hazards.

[NTJedi]

Endoperez said:

Hey now! That's just rude and unnecessary. "Cheating", that I'd call "learning to play the game" in this case, IS NOT EQUAL to not being able to lose.

I play rogulikes, and although I used to savescum I decided it takes away the fun, and then noticed I learn faster when I HAVE to, to survive. I completed ADOM once, without savescumming. But I do cheat in games. I even cheat in Dominions - I have a mod that lets me cast Wish and Gift of Reason and any other spell I ever decide to test, as needed, at turn 1 for 1 gem. I do it to test things, such as how fire bless and weapon with multiple attacks work together.

Testing strategies, spells, items, units, etc., is not cheating unless you finish the game and consider it a victory. Hence if you provide yourself with the wish spell and a powerful astral mage with gems at the start of a game then finish the game and consider your win a victory then it's cheating. My guess is you test your spells and then end the game without finishing.

KermNelson said:
I'm not sure if I said it already, but I agree with the poster - Illwinter's next game, and Stardock's not-MoM game, etc etc should have a save/load feature, unless they are like roguelikes, or like Dwarf Fortress. I don't know what your problem is, but could you at least be civil about it? [/mean]

I am being civil... and being honest. If the save/reload was a strategy method then those players would be using the save/reload to not only improve their strategies while winning, but also improve strategies while losing thus using the save/reload to provide the computer opponents with the advantage.
Having a save/reload will probably be included within Stardocks next game considering they have the time and staff. The save/reload will be a nice tool for game crashes, bugs, and testing... unfortunately some individuals will also use it for cheating by changing the future of game results.

[Agrajag]

Endoperez said:
I said that it should have save feature unless it's like Dwarf Fortress, which is more about the adventure that is playing the game than the feeling of beating the system.

Oh, I see.
Anyway, I use the saves only to prevent progress lost due to crashes :\ (I've had the power go out a couple of times while playing. Damned winter.)

[KermNelson]

To interact, to understand, to blather on!

NT Jedi posted:
“It's not an opinion... you are changing decided future results for the benefit of winning. Providing yourself an unfair advantage during the game against any opponents human or computer AI is cheating.” (end NT Jedi post)

Yes it is your opinion. You’ve simply restated it. If I saved/replayed a turn I’d be changing the path of the game(as I’ve stated I don’t do this in Dom3 but I will freely admit I do it in many games with the savegame option.) I am providing myself with an advantage during the game in this case only against the AI. I don’t consider it “unfair” or “cheating” because I’m not playing a being. The game has no set of rules. The game only has code. Dom3 allows Mods and I use them as I wish. I use them according to the game’s code. The game’s code is the nearest thing it has to rules and I follow it.

On your generalization to whether I think it is impossible to cheat a singleplayer game, I’d prefer to see the specific game. As I’ve already said I use some game’s ‘cheat codes’ I could debate whether I really thought it was cheating but I am willing to accept some game author’s characterization of them as ‘cheats’.

Your speculation on my playing darts ignores that it is a parlor/pub game with well known rules and I would not be playing “according to the rules” which is a definition of fair. Therefore I would be not be playing fair. But as I’ve stated I play Dom3 by the code while Dom3 doesn’t have rules. So I am playing by the code which is literal computer (instruction) rules(?) in Dom3 and therefore I think I am playing fair not unfair.

NT Jedi posted:
“I see another point you are missing... when someone is cheating whether it's against other human players or against AI opponents they are not only being UNFAIR to their opponents but they are also lying to themselves on the actual skills of their gameplay. Unfortunately many of these individuals continue to cheat because they cannot face losing.”
(Restated “facing a loss” later): “Unfortunately the save/reload you use during games is to provide you the constant victory or more importantly the way to avoid facing a loss.”
(Restated “UNFAIR”): “provides you a PERMANENT CONTINOUS UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.”
(Restated “unfair”): “Yes, mods are a great tool... like any other tool they can be used to provide an unfair advantage if used incorrectly. “(end NT Jedi posts)

As I just explained above from a definition of FAIR from the dictionary I think I am playing fairly. I play by the game’s code which is the closest thing that the game has to ‘rules’. A definition of FAIR is ‘according to the rules.’ So I provide myself with a permanent/continuous advantage, but I don’t consider it ‘unfair’.

I also am quite aware that I am taking additional strengthening measures to make it easier for me to learn a game I am fairly new at and I’ve admitted here so I’m neither “lying to” myself or deceiving others on this board. I have no problem losing except that I don’t want to waste my time at learning the game. I have at no time denied that in other games that I did reload that I didn’t lose either a battle or that I was unfortunately effected some random event. The event happened – it existed. I simply choose (in some other game) where I do save and reload to replay those turns or event having learned from the experience how to do it better if possible or in the case of random events I’ve eliminated the random bad result. I’m not denying any of this, if I was we wouldn’t be having this discussion. (IF I was denying losing a battle, game, or replaying some negative random event, I’d simply have ignored your posts and never entered this entertaining discussion.)

NT Jedi said:
“why don't you try my suggestion. For your next 10 games of each PC_game use the save/reload to change the future anytime you win a major battle. This way you can find the best strategy for making a recovery after major losses and/or important commanders/mages. I'm sure you've spent the last 25 years finding the fastest winning strategy... so it's time you find the best way to recover after major losses.”
(Restated in “If you were so true to the save/reload option for the purpose of strategic reasons then you would have been using the save/reload for the opposite method of improving your strategy after major losses.” (end NT Jedi quotes)

I’ve repeatedly freely admitted I Mod to increase my position: “I simply prefer to have the AI play consistently and increase my starting strength to decrease the learning curve and enjoy the learning process.” And I elaborated that many game companies allow setting adjustment: “Games are created with AI difficulty settings precisely to allow players to choose how hard a learning curve they experience.” Illwinter does this in Dom3’s settings. So your suggestion that I increase my difficulty by intentionally losing battles ignores part of my stated goals: to decrease my learning curve. But in fact in a few games I’ve quite thoroughly learned I do restart battles to see how few troops I can win with. But this is rare and I’m usually getting quite bored with the game because I so thoroughly understand its mechanics. I tend to prefer to buy a new game and learn fresh experiences rather than waste my time on almost trivial refinement. Again as I have stated I play to explore a game: in MMORPGs it is my primary Bartle’s type. I’m an “explorer” not an “achiever” or a “killer”(I think this is a negative term Bartle’s uses for PvPers.) (I my second strongest Bartle’s type is to “socialize” because I enjoy folks and exploring/learning with them.)

NT Jedi posted:
“Mods actually aren't needed even for the worst players. Simply play a very large map requiring 40% of the victory points, choose land nations for AI opponents(not ERMOR, Atlantis or Argatha), human plays a water nation, map has 40% water with no lakes and set AI difficulty on easy. No mods needed and a very easy game for the human player.”

Actually this would be quite boring because it extremely limits my interaction with the AI opponents. I’m too weak on land and they are too weak in the sea. You have repeatedly indication directly or indirectly that I somehow am pursuing an easy victory and avoiding a loss. That’s why I’ve defined the other Bartle’s types: achiever and killer and made it clear I’m NOT either. I don’t mind winning but my enjoyment comes from exploration or in these posts from socializing with other people.

In MMORPGs I love to just travel overland to see the creative and artistic scenery – I explore … I also enjoy exploring how each game works. Much of the reason I wrote Mods to increase my starting advantage was to explore how to mod. I frequently spend more time writing Mods: reading, trialing, and tweaking the mod; than playing the game with the mod. In fact one thing I find very boring in playing is that I have to constantly re-input unit building (or item forging) instructions and constantly move units to the front. Maybe someone has a Mod to do this or I’ve simply overlooked Dom3 ability but I get so tired of repeated builds and moves.


However one thing is still perfectly clear to me – we have different opinions including even your continued insistence that your statements are somehow more than simply your opinion (in my opinion).

[Foodstamp]

If you guys keep quoting each other, you might very well achieve your secret goal of writing the most boring novel ever.

[Kristoffer O]

Here foodstamp, have a cake [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cake.gif[/img]