Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War

[trooper]

MICAHEL MOORE'S NEW MOVIE THAT EXPOSES BUSH FOR THE SHAM HE REALLY IS
IS ALREADY GAINING ALOT OF MOMENTUM BEFORE IT'S RELEASE.


Truth wins at Cannes, says Moore

GEOFF PEVERE

Michael Moore's feature length documentary attack on the administration of President George W. Bush, Fahrenheit 9/11, took the top prize of the 57th annual Cannes Film Festival Last night.

"What have you done?," said an overwhelmed Moore when he took the stage to accept the award that culminated a typically awkward and unpredictable, but atypically politicized, four-minute ceremony. At the announcement of the major prize, the Palme d'Or, the tuxedo and evening-gown studded crowd stood on its feet and cheered.

Looking to jury president Quentin Tarantino, Moore joked, "You did that just to mess with me," before moving on to more serious matters.

Admitting that the Last six months, during which Fahrenheit 9/11 has been at the centre of a highly publicized dispute with The Walt Disney
Company over its distribution future, Moore said, "I have a sneaking suspicion that what you have done will ensure that the American people
will see this movie. I can't thank you enough for this.

"Many people want the truth put away, put in a closet," he said, "and you have taken it out of the closet."

Quoting President Abraham Lincoln, whom he described as "a different kind of Republican president," Moore said, "`Give the people the truth and the republic will be saved.'"

Alluding to the U.S. election in November, Moore concluded by saying he wanted to dedicate the next six months to "making sure that those
who have died in Iraq have not died in vain."

As predicted, the awards granted by Tarantino's jury — which also included the American actress Kathleen Turner, British actress Tilda
Swinton, Hong Kong filmmaker Tsui Hark and others — was eccentric in its choices.

After providing special Jury Prizes to Irma P. Hall's performance in Joel and Ethan Coen's The Ladykillers and the Thailand-made Tropical
Malady, Tarantino's jury awarded the best scenario prize to Agnes Jaoui and Jean-Pierre Bacri for Jaoui's Look At Me, best director to
Tony Gatlif for Exiles, best male performance to 14-year-old Yagria Yuuya for the Japanese-made Nobody Knows and best actress to Maggie
Cheung's performance in the French-Canadian-U.K. co-production Clean.

[...]

[dogscoff]

Moore uses film as if it were a weapon. He yeilds it against those whom he does not like

Agreed. And I don't have a problem with that. I'd rather he used film and media as a weapon than, say... an actual weapon. You are using your words as a weapon against him, so you can't criticise him for doing the same against Bush.

and he does this with dilibrate deception in mind.

Disagreed. I think he presents the truth as he sees it. Whether that's the absolute truth or not I can't say, but I don't doubt for a second that he believes every word of what he says/ writes, and that makes him nothing more nor less than honest. If all he wanted was to make a quick buck out of cheap, emotional non-content, he could do it a lot quicker and with a lot less research by making "support our troops abroad" and "tribute to the fallen heroes of 9/11" films.

Moore is a jerk and only the French would give him an award for an anti-Bush movie.

ONLY the French would give an award to an anti-bush movie eh? I reckon i could probably list a few other nations that might consider it. Iraq for one.

ONLY the French and those who love to hate America would consider ...blah blah blah ... the French who chose to give the award did

*Yawn*
Atrocities, look again at the post on this thread which lists the nationalities of the people who gave the award. THEY WERE NOT FRENCH. OK, one of them was, but three of the eight were american for crying out loud. And if you still persist that it's all some rabid anti-american conspiracy, then I think you need to ask yourself what america is doing wrong to generate so much hatred.

I'll quote it again for your convenience:

3 Americans, 1 Brit, 1 Chinese, 1 Finn, 1 Haitian and only 1 French person.

See... only 12.5% french. 37.5% American & 12.5% British- that puts at least half the votes in the "coalition of the willing." Stop blindly blaming everything on the French, it just makes you look ignorant.

The thing about Moore is he is so single-mindedly one-sided in his philosophy that it probably isn't that he is intentionally presenting only one side of the argument, he just simply can't accept any reasonable counter opinion to his own as being worthy of even consideration, much less give it time in one of hsi mockumentaries.

I think it's more that he doesn't see that as his job. There are more than enough people out there giving the other side of the argument, so he leaves that to them. He sees his views as under-represented, and so he just presents his side of the debate, and allows ppl like you to counterpoint what he has said.

Relying on his documentary and him as a source of factual evidence is like trusting Hitler when he says that the Jews are being well cared for. Now I am not comparing Mr. Moore to Hitler

Actually you are comparing him to Hitler, and I don't think it's a very fair comaprison:

Hitler: Totalitarian dictator with complete control over the press in his country.
Moore: Some guy with a film crew working within a (more or less) free-speech society.

Hitler saying Jews are well cared for: Lies to disguise Hitler's own evil behaviour.
Moore criticising Bush: Attempts to expose someone else's (alleged) evil behaviour.

Not the same thing at all.

Most of french people admire American way of life, wealth and Culture, and remember all European countries have a debt of gratitude to pay to the USA since WWII.

Yet the US seems quick to forget that it owes the French a debt of gratitude for the war of independence. Who do you think gave you the statue of liberty? If not for the French you yanks would all be speaking English...

[Slynky]

"If not for the French you yanks would all be speaking English..."

[minipol]

I also believe there is more to 9/11 that meets the eye but who doesn't. I agree with Fyron that said something along the lines (to lazy to look it up) of "It's not only the majority of the USA that's stupid also of your country" which was directed at freduk.

I can't agree more. The world is full of idiots.
And sometimes we act as idiots . To me, one of the things that pissed me of after the US & Britain attacked Iraq was that suddenly, a lot of Europeans (mainly) started thrashing on Bush. It became fashionable to trash "old yeller". Hey, i don't think he's smart enough either to be president, but all the "join us in protesting against bush" bandwagon stuff was over the top for me. The undertone that was spread was something like "If you are not against Bush and can't see he is evil, you're an idiot"
(a bit the same as Bush'es: "You are either with us or against us)
Well boohoo, i'll make up my own mind thank you.
A lot of people say the US sucks just to be "fashionable".

About bandwagon stuff: i'll never forget a story that my history teacher told us in class. Before WWII, a Doctor wanted to know what all the fuss was about with this ony guy, Hitler. He went over to a rally with the idea that Hitler was a complete cookoo & dangerous and that he manipulated people. At a certain time during the meeting, he caught himself clapping along with the masses. He was shocked.
A very illustrating story i think. When too many people start cheering, take a step backwards, start your brain and then decide what to do. Don't be a parrot.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
ONLY the French and those who love to hate America would consider this movie and the manusha that it shovels to be worthy of an award. That says a hell of a lot about them.

Shame on the French!

OhHum.
I rank this statement at the same level as the "US is a country made up of idiot-NRA lovers-ignorant-fat cowboys" myth. I think I prefer you as a shipset designer Atrocities.

[rextorres]

Trooper,

Well, Edwidge Danticat was born in Haiti - but if she is considered to be from the U.S. it emphasizes French open mindedness even more.

[ May 24, 2004, 16:10: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[AMF]

Forgive the rant, but I have an observation, a question, and, I guess, a plea.

There are a lot of things about America I don?t understand anymore.

We are SO polarized right now that I suspect many of us have had friendships destroyed where once they flourished. Ad Hominen attacks are commonplace. Rush Limbaugh and and Ann Coulter and Michael Moore and others of those ilk are the only voices heard because no one listens to reason or moderation anymore. One must shout radically to be heard by anyone ? how else can we explain the popularity of Coulter and Moore?

We have degenerated: I was a civilian analyst with the Marines on the ground in Iraq for the first 5 weeks of the war (nothing exciting, boring work actually, certainly not intel). About a week or two into the conflict, during that nasty week when things weren't going as expected, we heard rumors of actions by OGAs (that's "Other Governmental Agencies") engaging in non-Geneva Convention activity. I won?t go into details since I have a TS/SCI clearance and a job that I need to protect ? suffice it to say that it wasn?t torture, it was something much more benign and totally different, but still verboten under Geneva rules. At the time, I and all the Marine officers who talked about it were aghast. It was clear they felt that such activities were not permissible under the Laws of War and were appalling. The general perception at that time was something like "Man, if this ever gets out that this is true, some heads are gonna roll."

Ok, so, flash-forward to today. These events have, if you read between the
lines, become largely public. And, no, I?m not talking about the recent torture stuff. But, due to the recent revelations, the things we heard about while over there have taken a back seat. In other words, if I revealed today what we had heard about taking place over there during the war, NO ONE WOULD CARE. The telling point is this: over the space of a few short years after 9/11, we as a people seem to have become quite tolerant of what we would never have allowed before.

If someone got up nowadays and talked about the stuff we heard about over there, people would look at them funny and say "Hey, that's not so bad, nothing wrong with that." When, I can honestly tell you that, during the war itself, this action, even the rumor of it, caused us great consternation.

I found working with the Marines highly commendable and rewarding. Although I worked mainly with Majors and above, all officer and enlisted ranks were very diligent about obeying the laws of war and tried their damndest to avoid civilian casualties. I had friends there who came back after convoy ops where they were very upset because when they returned fire to protect their convoy they were afraid they shot a little girl, or an innocent bystander, or the like.

I guess my question then, in light of my above observations, is this: have we changed so much over the Last few years that what would seem unthinkable to us then is now acceptable? Sure, we're aghast, disgusted at the torture and abuse of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib, but then, we also have Rush calling it "some kids just letting off steam." I don?t even want to know what Coulter says.

I don?t understand how we came to a point this low. It disgusts me. If this is what it means to be an American, I am no longer proud to be one.

Did 9/11 affect us that much? Have we come so low, changed so much, in such a short time? If so...what hope is there for humanity and the "great experiment" that is America? Have we lost all hope of being forever a "City on a Hill" and holding forth the promise of a new world that is better and more ethical than the Old? (Heh, now I?m just waxing on, dramatically.)

I have been affected over the past three years as many of us no doubt have - I lost friends in the Navy Command Center at the Pentagon, and I saw it on the day it happened since we drove by it everyday. My wife worked the 'crime scene' at the World Trade Center and saw things that would make the most battle hardened vet queasy. I was abroad as a civilian analyst for Operation Enduring Freedom and in Iraq for the first five weeks of OIF. At the time I thought both wars were well justified. (It?s clear now only the first one was.)

After the Election of 2000 I kept hoping that Bush would be a ?uniter? not a divider and that we would come back from the brink of a permanently polarized America. Bush turned out to be the exact opposite. And the war was a great joke played upon the American people, who went along with it willingly, like lemmings. Sure, Saddam was Evil as heck, and it?s good he?s gone. But to take a nation to WAR and destroy treaties and alliances along with it all based on being MISLED is so atrocious a crime I can?t begin to describe it.

Am I the only one who thinks that, as far as I can tell, it looks like America has gone nearly mad? I almost don't recognize it anymore.

I have always been a moderate to conservative democrat. I almost voted for Reagan II, and probably would have voted for McCain in 2000 had he won the nomination (just don?t tell my wife).

But those were political decisions based, I would like to think, on the DATA available at the time.

To wit, I come to my plea: one should look at the facts when making one?s decisions.

We appear to not do that anymore in this country. There was a time when we based on decisions on rational, informed, polite debate. The Senate was a place for gentlemanly disagreements and consensus building. Now, it seems it is easier to believe what one wants than look at the facts to make an informed decision. We have not only lost the ability to be disgusted or to be honest when we screw up, but we seem to have lost the ability to even make informed decisions when they contradict our ideologies. The President, when asked what mistakes he feels he has made during his administration could not think of any! Such hubris is unthinkable, and it speaks volumes about how blind our leaders our.

So here is a FACT that a person can choose to ignore at their peril: There was NO connection between 9/11 and Iraq. The country was misled about the war. I believed what the administration said about WMDs, connection to Al Qaeda, etc? a lot of us believed it, but it was NOT true. That has been revealed repeatedly by multiple sources, and by the administration ITSELF which admits there was no connection to 9/11 and Saddam Hussein and that there were no WMDs. People can choose to ignore this fact to avoid cognitive dissonance and preserve your beliefs, or they can open their minds a bit and make decisions like humans, not animals. God gave us minds, use them to think critically.

And, here are some OPINIONS that are, to me at least, pretty well borne out by the evidence (these are NOT facts, so they can be ignored without risk of cognitive dissonance): The world is a LOT more dangerous now than before the war. We have invigorated an entire generation of the Arab world to become terrorists. We are in a LOT of trouble. We will be VERY hard pressed to prevail in Iraq in any meaningful way that makes the world safer. We have, in the process of screwing that all up, DESTROYED the entire postwar system of trust and multilateral alliances that kept the world prosperous and secure for the past five decades. No one loves America anymore, not really. We are no longer a leader of the free world, but a renegade giant. A resounding accomplishment, a terrible shame, and one that will come back to haunt our children and our children?s children.

My apologies for running off at the mouth, and so dramatically...sometimes I look around and get amazed at how barbaric and simpleminded we?ve become in a few short years?all I?m asking is that everyone out there should THINK -- not simply parrot the party line. These times demand that, else we are truly in a lot of trouble. ?Permanent, big-time, world changing for the worse? trouble. You want the end-times? Well, all they require is mindless obedience without any critical thinking. All Evil requires is for men to do nothing ? and that includes not thinking critically.

That is why I am proud to now call myself a Liberal. One of the hallmarks of liberalism is the inclination to arrive at truth and decisions after informed debate that brings one to an understanding of multiple sides of an issue. There are plenty of knee-jerk liberals out there, but the real hallmark of conservatism and reactionaries is that they know the truth without having to bother with discourse, debate, or any sort of understanding of the issues in play. They even trumpet that as if it were a good thing. That?s just plain stupid.

All I?m saying is that if we, as Americans, don?t start acting rational, the entire world is in a lot of trouble. Everything America does affects the entire world ? for better or worse. So it?s time we started once acting like we at least try to make the right decisions with informed and honest and fact-based non-partisan debate.

I?m done. Forgive me for ranting, but someone had to say the Emperor has no clothes. I?m sure I?ll get a lot of hateful replies, but to hell with it. I?m done being quiet and hoping that sanity will prevail.

Thanks,

Alarik

EDIT: I just deleted my "final PS" since I had been feeling it came across (and probably was, to be honest) as a personal attack since it came right on the heels of another comment. I regret making a comment that could be interpreted as a personal attack...hence, deleted! hoo rah!

[ May 25, 2004, 20:21: Message edited by: alarikf ]

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atrocities:
ONLY the French and those who love to hate America would consider this movie and the manusha that it shovels to be worthy of an award. That says a hell of a lot about them.

Shame on the French!

OhHum.
I rank this statement at the same level as the "US is a country made up of idiot-NRA lovers-ignorant-fat cowboys" myth. I think I prefer you as a shipset designer Atrocities.

---

I am sorry Unknown, you are NOT included in my redneck gun toating, ford pickup driving philosphie.

Seriously, that comment was directed at ONLY the people who awarded Moore that award based on political views rather than merit. I am whole heartedly sorry if I offended you or any person in France. (Except those who like Jerry Lewis and Micheal Moore. )

[Atrocities]

Trooper, I laughed at the Little Boy comment.

Can we all agree to dissagree over this? I say Moore is a FB out to pollute the gene pool and currupt the people of other countries with his warped missleading films.

You say he is great and is the next best thing to Jesus the world has ever seen.

On this we should agree to disagree.

Peace is good.

[ May 24, 2004, 17:03: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by alarikf:
Forgive the rant, but ...

apart from that there are long term economicaly harms coused by the actual goverment of the USA to your country: in Last years the number of scientific publications, awards and patent registration falls back (there are many reasons for this fact founded on failures in politics). if this trend won't broken in next few years USA are not longer the technological precursor as in Last decades. this fact combined with a HUGE military budget that grows in same time ...

think on Soviet Union collapse. i see parallels in long term.