OT = How Does Shrapnel Stay In Business - Page 7

Nitram Draw · #61 August 3rd, 2001, 08:22 PM

When you look at what "windoze", as you call it, can do I can't understand all the fuss. Here is a product that my grandmother can use to send e-mail and can be used by a multi-billion international company. There are't many products like that. Granted most of the stuff that ships in Windows is not used by all or even a large percentage of owners but it is a pretty impressive piece of work.

Please note I don't say it's the best possible.

Atrocities · #62 August 3rd, 2001, 08:32 PM

Well, MS did the graphics interface first. Nooo, wait, that was Xerox.

Well MS did the DOS system, no.. they bought it for 50k off some dips**t who didn't know any better.

They invented the mouse. Noo, again Xerox.

Ok, I know what they did first... They invented software licencing. Oh we owe them a big [insert sarcasim] thank you for that [/sarcasim]

#63 August 3rd, 2001, 08:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:

Quote:

What if ANYTHING did MS do first ???
Uh... turn a profit?
Geo

LOL LOL I have to concede you got me good on that one. However let me point out that there ARE such things as robber barons and MS fits the "Bill" LOL LOL.

The way it happens is that rather than offering better PRODUCTS for sale, a RB offers better incentives to BUY. A trivial example is having a sales office in every city, with sales reps that take purchasers from potential corporate customers out to lunch, give gifts in the disguise of free samples and generally are such good buddies that the judgement to buy is made not on the merits of the product, but on the prospect of personally recieving more free goodies.

A less obvious example is having a well run customer help center with well trained staff so that rather than developing a product which does not require help at all from the provider, the customer is lured into thinking that the product is well concieved and supported but just too complex for his/her own personal understanding. Tell me I am wrong on that one ? The software products do NOT have to be beyond the understanding of the average person, let alone that of the average developer. But they have been DESIGNED THAT WAY BY INTENT as a policy to lock customers in to the product family. This is because after going through the horrors of getting the product to function, the customer BELIEVES that alternative products would be just as bad or worse...

A third RB tactic is to design in rapid obsolesence of the products. Basically you do this by having kitchen sink products that do many things at a minimum level of functionality, but nothing well. You call this an "integrated comprehensive solution for the Millenium". Then you offer partial upgrades to individual functions which taken together cost 4 times the price of the package. Every couple of years you offer a "major upgrade" of the entire package for 2x the cost of the previous package, plus a new customer introductory package at the same cost as the previous one but with slightly better functionality. At no time do you EVER offer the customer a product as good as you COULD make, because then it would be several years before the customer could be persuaded to buy again. The classic example of this is International Harvester in the old days making 20 year tractors, while automakers put out 4-8 year automobiles.....

While these tactics have become ingrained into the mindset of corporate America, they all violate basic principles of equity. Such as "a fair exchange of value", "the best product at the best price", "fair competition and a fair deal", "may the best man win", and going back a couple thousand years - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

So yes, there ARE robber barons, and the only real problem is finding some company which is NOT run by them. This is because those companies only Last a few years in the piranha "invested" waters of corporate America. I happen to be optimistic enough to think that in the long run society will have a bellyful of this behavior and stop tolerating it. In the meantime the best that can be done is to blow off a little steam every once and a while to remind people that everything is NOT hunky dory.

Atrocities - that software licencing is why I will not write one single line of code for windows....

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 03 August 2001).]

Alpha Kodiak · #64 August 3rd, 2001, 08:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LCC:
Amiga was doing ALL event driven software in 85. They were also doing concurrent multitasking in multiple windows, which it took ten YEARS for MS to support after they had killed off Amiga and Atari. So you would have had these "advanced" system features on the typical PC 15 YEARS ago without MS. Amiga was the very first machine with a Genlock VCR interface. The list could go on for quite a while. What if ANYTHING did MS do first ??? Check the companies they drove out of business for lost products before you reply.....

I carefully reread my post, and I can't find anywhere in there where I said Microsoft did anything first or best. My comments about the future don't even require MS to be around (smart money says they'll be there for a while, though) but mainstream Users want the features that are in Windows, and even more. I don't care if it's MS or Amiga or whoever, they are going to have to handle all of the different functionality, and that means a ton of background code doing all of it. When I write a dialog for Windows, I don't have to write any code to handle the mouse, or the keyboard, or anything like that. It's all handled by MFC (same with Delphi, VB or any other tool used to put the dialog together). The same situation would be true on any other GUI-based platform. As for the handhelds that may someday take the place of the desktops, what do you think they run as an OS? Windows CE.

Atrocities · #65 August 3rd, 2001, 08:45 PM

quote:
Amiga was the very first machine with a Genlock VCR interface.

Please read my earlier post about using an Amiga. (Gen Lock is a term used to describe the ability to "lock" video signals together for the purpose of composite, editting, etc. It is what synics everthing together. The Amiga was a god send to many production facilities, and I am sure, still is to many today.

#66 August 3rd, 2001, 09:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I carefully reread my post, and I can't find anywhere in there where I said Microsoft did anything first or best.

Absolutely right, you did not. Also if you read mine, you will see that I was offering a challenge to find an example, not accusing you of thinking they were the first or best at anything. If you visit the Amiga.com website then you will note that there ARE or soon WILL be other operating systems on handhelds. Also read the comments I just posted on tactics by robber barons, in particular offering a kitchen sink package.

Back in the old days each computer product manufacturer offered several product families as standard packages and ALSO offered customer specific options for packages so that you did not have to buy the kitchen sink unless you really needed it. You will note that as somebody else also just pointed out, most of the products packaged together for over $100 in the Windows operating system are NOT used by the VAST MAJORITY of customers. Those customers would be better served by selling them a $20 package that contained just what they needed, plus options at $5 each on the few other parts they want. Do NOT tell me that this would be a configuration control nightmare, because the automated help databases could handle any combination whatsoever without human intervention. That was the weak point in the old days - getting support for oddball configurations. It would also not be a marketing nightmare, because most software purchases are handled by Online purchase using "Shopping Carts". Most software is purchased by download, so that is not an issue either. So that $20 basic package only needs to include enough to get the customer Online to buy more. So the only issue left is that the customer may not want to go Online. Well where the heck did the customer get the computer ? If at a store then the store can do the downloads onto a disk. If by mail, then check off the options desired at purchase. The only objection I can see to my proposition is that it would be somewhat less profitable. Which brings me back full circle to my accusation - they are robber barons.

geoschmo · #67 August 3rd, 2001, 09:42 PM

quote:
The way it happens is that rather than offering better PRODUCTS for sale, a RB offers better incentives to BUY. A trivial example is having a sales ...

Treat the customer right.

quote:
A less obvious example is having a well run customer help center with well trained staff so that rather than developing a product which does not require help at all from the provider, the customer is lured ...

Trained, curteous support.

quote:
A third RB tactic is to design in rapid obsolesence of the products. Basically you ...

Value added products.
I don't know LCC. I work for a company in the computer industry (NOT MS). It's sounds like you are reading from our "Core Values".

quote:
While these tactics have become ingrained into the mindset of corporate America, they all violate basic principles of equity. Such as "a fair exchange of value", "the best product at the best price", "fair competition and a fair deal", "may the best man win"...

This is all very nice sounding, but whose standards do you use to decide what is fair... equitable... the best? Government? Business? The public? You?

The fact that you cannot reasonably dispute, is that the proliferation of the "Bloat" precipitated by Windoze, and others, is the very thing that has driven the advancements in hardware technology that make it possible for the more efficient operating systems to do the amazing things they can today. Supply and Demand. Economics 101. Amiga and others that you mentioned were technically advanced for their time, but they were not marketable for whatever reason, or they would have been marketed. You give Gates too much credit.

The list of technically superior products that never made it to market or lagged behind did not start with the computer age. Betamax? Diesel Engines? That's just two in this century. My gosh if Da Vinci had some of "The Bills" ability at marketing and self promotion, maybe we would be living Space Empires IV instead of just playing it on bloated pc's full of poor quality software and useless thingamajigs.

The laize faire system is by no means perfect. It can be abused. But it is the best way available because it takes the realistic assumption of the inherent greed of all human beings, and uses that as a check against corruption in the system. In a more structured system, there may be controls over corruption at the bottom, but there is no check against it at the top.

quote:
Do NOT tell me that this would be a configuration control nightmare, because the automated help databases could handle any combination whatsoever without human intervention.

Uh, would that be the databases running Windows NT, or some "magical fairy" databases?

You are getting in to trouble with your argument here. None of this would even be possible without the proliferation of computers that was a direct result of the accessibility of pc's in the Last 15 years. In this way Gates really created a market where there was none before. Again note I do not believe Gates is in anyway superior to anyone else. If he had not done it, either someone else would have done something very similar to what he did, or computers would never have gone the way of CB radio. A vary cool toy, with a loyal devoted following, but no real broad based appeal.

Geo
EDIT:

quote:
Uh, would that be the databases running Windows NT, or some "magical fairy" databases?

This was a bit of a mistatement on my part. I do understand the difference between the operating system, and the database software.

My point is valid though.

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 03 August 2001).]

#68 August 3rd, 2001, 09:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
but mainstream Users want the features that are in Windows, and even more. I don't care if it's MS or Amiga or whoever, they are going to have to handle all of the different functionality, and that means a ton of background code doing all of it. When I write a dialog for Windows, I don't have to write any code to handle the mouse, or the keyboard, or anything like that. It's all handled by MFC (same with Delphi, VB or any other tool used to put the dialog together). The same situation would be true on any other GUI-based platform. As for the handhelds that may someday take the place of the desktops, what do you think they run as an OS? Windows CE.

Back in 85 the Amiga Workbench (Windows without Microsoft and concurrent multitasking to boot)was controlled either by the developer using the Intuition interface to the lower level drivers, or going down to the driver level and customizing them for oddball devices. They HAD drivers for every device, and animation/ graphics/ sound at any level desired to boot. They would have had packages for software composition at higher levels than the Intuition interface if the company had Lasted long enough to get customers that NEEDED it. That's because it was an OPEN operating system supporting thousands of third party companies with cheap or free development tools, well documented, well designed for ease of understanding, well concieved for functionality, and memory/ execution time efficient to boot. People like me wrote and published over 800 Megabytes of FREE software for the Amiga, managed by Fred Fish. Commodore Amiga had everything they needed except money and marketing skill, which was utterly lacking. ..

If the new incarnation of Amiga can survive just a couple more years, they will OBLITERATE Microsoft, but I expect MS knows it well and will prevent it. HOW they will do so is the only question. But I predict that it will NOT be by offering superior products.

#69 August 3rd, 2001, 11:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
Treat the customer right.
Trained, curteous support.
Value added products.

1) TANSTAAFL (Heinlein) There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. The cost of those lunches is bundled into the products, plus overhead for the salesman's time and a profit margin. I DO NOT LIKE PAYING FOR THOSE "FREE" LUNCHES AND "GIFTS".

2) The product should be DESIGNED FOR EASE OF USE, so the customer USUALLY does not HAVE to get help. This is NOT the case for Microsoft products, especially for third party software developers.

3) You have a strange notion of VALUE if you think adding it in dribbles at the PRICE of a MAJOR upgrade is okay when the COST for each dribble is that of a MINOR tweak.

I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that 3) occurs. I will not name the company, except to say that I developed a product that had 8x the performance of the existing product at 2/3 the cost. Another department had developed another upgrade for the same product at 3x the performance and 3/4 the cost. Marketing told me that my product would be offered to the customers two years down the road but ONLY AFTER THE MARKET DRIED UP for the lesser upgrade. I left that company soon afterwards.

I can not speak for Aaron and Shrapnel, but their philosophy seems to be in line with mine. Basically :
1) Offer the best product you are able at the lowest price you can afford, with a comfortable but not excessive profit margin.
2) Give good customer support to your CUSTOMERS, but do not force them to pay for trying to lure in those who are only POTENTIAL customers.
3) Let the merits of the products speak for them.
4) Do not promise then fail to deliver.
5) Do not try to baffle the customer with ********.
6) Go for steady long term growth with a satisfied and ever larger customer base, not a QUICK KILLING.

Maybe Richard would care to post Shrapnel's guidelines for customer relations ? The only thing I can add is that I am 100% satisfied with the support so far, and 80% satisfied with the product I bought. It exceeded my expectations but fell short of my dreams. With input from customers like me Aaron probably will make SE IV so much better that MOO3 will be a laughingstock when it is finally released.

Arcadenut · #70 August 3rd, 2001, 11:58 PM

I heard that there was some good drugs in this forum so I thought I would stop by and check it out!

quote:
Originally posted by LCC:
Back in 85 the Amiga Workbench (Windows
without Microsoft and concurrent multitasking to boot)was controlled either

Back in 82 the Commodore 64 (Amiga without the GUI, multitasking, graphics, sound, etc...) we had direct access to the hardware too! Then Commodore ruined it for all of us by creating a Multi-Tasking OS with a GUI! Talk about BLOAT! You needed more than 64K of memory after that, and you had to load the OS off of Floppy or Hard Disk! Progress just sucks!

quote:

by the developer using the Intuition interface to the lower level drivers, or going down to the driver level and customizing them for oddball devices. They HAD drivers for every device, and animation/ graphics/ sound at any level desired to boot. They would have had packages for software composition at higher levels than the Intuition interface if the company had Lasted long enough to get customers that NEEDED it.

Uh, I believe the call that a "Device Driver" today. Some people even refer to it as "Hardware Abstraction". Something new? Nope. Something that Commodore inventerd? Nope.

quote:

That's because it was an OPEN operating system

Is this the Microsoft definition of "Open Operating System"? Could I get a copy of the Amiga OS source code? Could I run the Amiga OS on my Atari ST? On the PC? How about the MAC? I don't think its really "Open" if you can't see the source, or run it on any other platform other than the Amiga.

quote:

supporting thousands of third party companies with cheap or free development tools, well documented, well designed for ease of understanding, well concieved for functionality, and memory/ execution time efficient to boot.

Microsoft has 100's of thousands of "Third party companies" support it. There are several free compilers on Windows too! Want documentation? Have you seen the MSDN? Its so big now, that they ship it on a DVD.

What about Books? I went to the bookstore today, and I don't recall seeing "Amiga Unleashed" or "Mastering Amiga", or even "Amiga for Dummies"....

quote:

People like me wrote and published over 800 Megabytes of FREE software for the Amiga, managed by Fred Fish.

Hmmmm... Well, lets see... I just installed SuSE 7.2 Linux on one of my PC's Last weekend. The FULL install was 8 GIG. Guess what! It was all FREE too! Ever taken a look at tucows.com? download.com? fileplanet.com?

quote:

Commodore Amiga had everything they needed except money and marketing skill, which was utterly lacking. ..

Yeah, who needs those! Money? Bah! Marketing? Everyone will just *KNOW* about our product which will solve the Money problem for us! All we have to do is WAIT for the customer to come to us! Brilliant!

quote:

If the new incarnation of Amiga can survive just a couple more years,

Here check out this link to see how well Amiga has been "Surviving" Who owns them now? Who is the CEO again?
http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=AMIGA

quote:

they will OBLITERATE Microsoft, but I expect MS knows it well and will prevent it.

The day this happens, I'm going to Vegas! The day Amiga can OBLITERATE Microsoft is the day I'm going to win in Vegas!

quote:

HOW they will do so is the only question. But I predict that it will NOT be by offering superior products.

How will Microsoft Defeat the Amiga onslaught? By doing exactly what they are doing now against it. Nothing.

Then again, if Jack Tramiel was running Commodore again! Look out MicroSoft!

Now where did I put that Crack Pipe... Oh, LCC is using it right now....