Clams overpowered?

[SelfishGene]

Hmm didn't read the whole thread, but it has to be an increase in Astral imo. Water 3 means 20 gems which is too expensive. Any other gem cost would be just a random barrier. 5 Astral would mean that now "it takes money to make money", and would also make clams somewhat harder for the landlubber nations to forge, since mages with 2 water 1 astral would be relatively less common.

[Zapmeister]

"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill all, and you are a god!"

Kill one man, and you are a murderer.
Kill millions, and you are a mass-murdering psychopath.
Kill all, and you are alone.

[mnoracle]

blood stones are both at a normal cost/benefit rate

Hmm... let me see, blood stones 20+5, but they are also pump earth magic skill. Thinking that you can easily amass huge numbers of blood slaves, i don't see where is the main difference with clams.
So BS are broken!!! Nerf, nerf...

[Xom]

I think people who abuse clams, can abuse this poll as well. I know this mentality.

[Zapmeister]

Any other gem cost would be just a random barrier.

I disagree. Someone pointed out earlier that a clam is a growing thing, so nature would not be inappropriate.

The problem with astral is that R'lyeh, the most obvious clam-hoarding candidate, has water/astral mages straight out of the box. Also, astrals are output by the clams, so the feedback loop is fed rather than inhibited.

Adding a small astral cost to clams would do little to slow down hoarding, IMHO.

[Scott Hebert]

Having read the arguments...

I'd have to say Norfleet has a very persuasive argument, yet I notice a problem in it.

Norfleet, you say, on the one hand, that it is appropriate to be able to give up use of a resource now in return for a greater resource later. And I agree with you. This is the concept behind investment, and it should work.

However, you also make the comment that Water gems are useful for very little besides making Clams. While I don't have the experience with the game to make this assessment (Sea King's Court seems at least decent for water gems.), I will believe your assessment.

When you take both of these statements together, though, you end up with a conundrum. If Water Gems have little use besides Clams, you're not losing anything to invest in them. IOW, you're not really losing 'present resources' to gain 'future resources', since those 'present resources' aren't useful in and of themselves.

Do you see the issue here?

Bayushi Tasogare

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
When you take both of these statements together, though, you end up with a conundrum. If Water Gems have little use besides Clams, you're not losing anything to invest in them. IOW, you're not really losing 'present resources' to gain 'future resources', since those 'present resources' aren't useful in and of themselves.

Do you see the issue here?

Yes, yes I do see the issue here: The issue, however, is slightly different. It's not "Clams are overpowered", it's "water magic sucks".

Water magic needs some rituals which are actually useful. THAT is the problem. It has a number of tactically useful battlefield spells, including the most awesome ones, like Quickness....but few useful rituals.

Take, for example, Sea King's Court (which is actually a form of investment in itself, as Sea Kings produce free water gems!): It has several drawbacks, the first and foremost being that the Sea King, and his court, demands upkeep! A lot of upkeep! This, of course, greatly undermines the value of the summoning: You summon troops because you want heavy hitters and/or things that demand no upkeep, preferrably both. Sea Trolls, however, are subpar, being that their protection is poor and their raw physical might not really impressive: Their sole saving grace is the fact that they are aquatic and can invade sea provinces....and this is of absolutely no use if no water nations are present or you are mostly landlocked.

Other water summons tend to be relatively anemic at best compared to the summons of the other elements: Many are aquatic only, which tends to restrict their use to aquatic nations....who already have aquatic troops, and generally need something useful on LAND.

Water evocations, on the other hand, are also very limited: They all tend to focus on cold, and are most effective in cold provinces that, conveniently, tend to contain people that are cold immune!

Water, basically, needs more tricks. Or at least fixes so that Sea King's Courts don't demand massive chunks of your money and wind up bankrupting your empire when you try to spend your water gems there.

[ April 17, 2004, 03:30: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[SelfishGene]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It's not "Clams are overpowered", it's "water magic sucks".

I'd certainly agree with that. It seems like IW sort of ran out of ideas by the time they got to
water magic. Another Magic Dome, another seasonal animal, another generic summons or three, several evoc spells that almost mirror a fire counterpart, ect. I think ill start another thread for water magic suggestions however rather than begin rattling them off in the middle of another topic.

[ April 17, 2004, 04:49: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

You can't "nerf" clams by improving the other water magic rituals. You'd end up having the whole path being broken and not just clams.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
You can't "nerf" clams by improving the other water magic rituals. You'd end up having the whole path being broken and not just clams.

I sort of agree with this. Are water nations underpowered because water magic sucks? Maybe I'm wrong but they seem pretty competitive. If you made water magic powerful enough to discourage clam building (and for some people that would have to be pretty damn powerful) you'd probably make the water nations too powerful.

I think clams are fine for small games and taking wish out of long games would solve a lot of the problem. Maybe adding 5 astral to the cost would be better, I'm not sure.