Golden Age Arcoscephale

[PvK]

Originally posted by Blitz:

quote:

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quote:
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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.
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Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you?

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I get it. But that is why you don't send big tramplers in alone - you send them accompanied by other very good units, to add to the carnage.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... Also, if everyone is set to guard commander, the entire group routs the moment somebody bites it. And somebody will probably bite it that way. ...

I've never noticed that kind of problem. Seems like Groups of units on Guard Commander are no more likely to rout on losses than Groups with any other kind of orders.

PvK

[Blitz]

I get it. But that is why you don't send big tramplers in alone - you send them accompanied by other very good units, to add to the carnage.

But the question is WHY!

Why use a big trampler at all? Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots... or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something? At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY?

Prince Of Death
DDDDD EEEE SSSS
Dominion 5
Boots of Behemoth
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle

Do I win now? Oh my god please just stop.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Why use a big trampler at all?

Because trampling is the best way to kill large quantities of normal troops very quickly and in the very early game.

Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots...

Because that need for equipment means that it will take many more turns for the pretender to start affecting battles. The shedu is out and conquering from turn 4.

or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something?

The prince of death cannot have his afflictions healed by the priestesses.

At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY?

Any armor he can wear isn't going to do more than what you could get with invulnerability. With 400+ hitpoints, protection 30, luck, astral shield, and etherealness, the shedu is hard to kill even when surrounded and unconscious. It's the flying equivalent of a monolith, and has to be used for a different purpose and with different tactics than many other pretenders, but that doesn't make it useless.

Do I win now? Oh my god please just stop.

The prince of death you just described is far more vulnerable to mind duel than the astral 6 Shedu, and requires equipment that Arco will have trouble forging in the first 10-15 turns if you also want to do any alteration or enchantment research. You keep comparing the Shedu to pretender designs that are made for different types of games, and for different goals. Of course it doesn't match up in its ability to kill other SCs, but as I've said that's not the point of the unit.

And by the way, asking if you "win" is pointless when this isn't a competition.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:58: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Blitz]

Ok screw it. You wanna play with your shedu go nuts. If you want to sit there and dream up asinine scenarios whereby the Shedu is clearly the unit of choice, far be it from me to stop you.

I'll be sure to look forward to your next posting regarding the awesome power of the Asynja, Great Black Bull, Arch Druid, and Lord of the Gates.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Blitz:
... But the question is WHY!

Why use a big trampler at all? Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots... or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something? At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY?

Prince Of Death
DDDDD EEEE SSSS
Dominion 5
Boots of Behemoth
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle
...

Shedu
EEEE SSSSSS
Dominion 6
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle

Why? Well it's a matter of taste and the PoD is ok, but the Shedu can't be banished, this Shedu is much harder to Mind Duel than that PoD, and as others have said, trampling has different pros and cons than hand weapons. Trampling can kill people more quickly than a sword. This means more shock value, which is important to fliers. One strength of a strong flier attack is that it may do a lot of sudden unexpected damage, causing a rout which can be mopped up easily by fliers. The reason a Shedu, or a small group of Wind Riders, often dies when they attack rear, is lack of critical mass - they get outnumbered and swarmed and rout first. Shedu attracts a lot of attention and causes a lot of damage to Groups which Wind Riders might have trouble with. Wind Riders do well against the units the Shedu can't easily stomp. Combined arms. One of the difficulties is the time it takes GE to build up a large enough force of fliers. Well, with a Shedu mixed in, it provides a very strong boost to the required critical mass. Yes a PoD can do that too, and it's fine if you prefer a PoD. Shedu may be overpriced, but it's not useless, and it fits a certain play style and has some unique advantages.

PvK

P.S.
Dropping cost to 75 points, or making Shedu E1S2 or E2S2 might be good adjustments.

I have used Great Druid before (yes I do like getting extra vine ogres), and I might use Asynja some time. Which is not to say that they couldn't be better (mb increase vine bonus and/or Nature +1-2 on Druid, and lower cost or increase something on Asynja). My point about these is that they do have some advantages, even if maybe they might be a bit overpriced or could use a bit of a boost.

[ June 21, 2004, 03:40: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
I've never noticed that kind of problem. Seems like Groups of units on Guard Commander are no more likely to rout on losses than Groups with any other kind of orders.

If the only units on the field other than commanders are bodyguards, a rout will occur the moment anyone dies. If you have OTHER units on the field, they function normally, but if there's only a guard commander group and commander(s), then everyone chickens out the moment anyone dies.

[PvK]

Oh, interesting. Sounds like a bug. I usually had a whole additional army, so I guess I didn't often, if ever, get a chance to see that.

BTW, I created the Shedu I just mentioned. Crunch, God of Mountains, Patron of Soldiers, Guardian of Existance. I like the title. I set it up on Aran against 11 impossible AI's with Indy strength 5, to see how well what I mentioned would meet my own standards.

Heh - has anyone ever tried Farstrike with a Shedu? I figure it ought to be about Damage 49 for Earth 4...

So far it splats everyone in one shot, but no hard targets yet.

Shedu seems to be able to flatten at least 20 men before running out of fatigue. Currently Crunch tops the hall of fame, and I haven't even been able to hire any flying escorts yet (wanted to get some Myrmidons yet - yes, the Sloth makes it slow to recruit them.

PvK

P.S.
First heavy cavalry + crossbow indies met. I only have six Myrmidons, a Myrmidon leader, the starting Peltasts and Cardaces plus six, and what's left of Dante's Stingers. The Myrmidons are in front and stand outnumbered by heavy cavalry, and stand firm, taking some bruises but losing zero men. Crunch then farstrikes someone and floats over to the crossbows and commanders, who were in a tight group. Crunch. Routed enemy. Crunch crunch crunch. No sweat, so far.

BTW we didn't mention that GE has 100-gold lab building costs, and the scrying dominion.

Another kind of savage thing you could do as GE Arco is build lots of Myrmidon commanders, and give the better of them magic trinkets. Gold can be in abundance while building high-resource troops with Order 3, and 35 gold vs. 14 gold for a regular myrmidon gets a commander Version with better skills, which can be a thug or super thug. I guess you can only build one, when you could be building a Philosopher or Mystic or Wind Lord, though. Still, if/when you do get short on gold, it's a cheap and pretty good unit.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'll be sure to look forward to your next posting regarding the awesome power of the Asynja, Great Black Bull, Arch Druid, and Lord of the Gates.

If you can't figure out how to use the Asynja or the great back bull, then you aren't trying very hard. The lord of the gates simply has to follow an army around so that he won't rout early, and the arch druid is safest rainbow mage to use thanks to his stealth. I'd also be quite happy to show you just how useful the Shedu can be in a very fast game. One that will usually be over by turn 20, and very rarely Lasts more than 30 turns.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:36: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by PvK:
Oh, interesting. Sounds like a bug. I usually had a whole additional army, so I guess I didn't often, if ever, get a chance to see that.

It's not a bug so much as a safety feature to prevent bodyguards from keeping your important commanders on the field longer than they should be.