Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01

You don't use your most expensive mages to research, you use your cheapest mages for research. The ninjas work just fine for research and can switch to battle duty when needed, you'll only build the mages when you need a battlefield or ritual presence.

Sacred is a large consideration. I don't know if 70% is the right number, but it is definitely a factor.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Japanese Monsters you might want to incorporate:

Oki--giant hill-troll types. They eat humans. Big and dumb.

Tengu--big nosed goblins. Very big egoes. Small, not powerful, but high morale.

Kappa--amphibious frog people, nature/water magicians. High culture.

Fox-Men--shape shifting nature spirits, tricksters, magicians. Powerful and dangerous.

Crazy Women--like bansidhees, crazy women had long hair, screamed and wailed, and were evil spirits of death and jealousy.

Shinto Spirits--wide and varied nature spirits. Mountains, stones, trees, rivers, kind've like elementals. Powerful but remote.

Lone Buddhist Magician--very powerful mages in stories. Wide variety of magics, but whatever they specialize in they are good at (3'rd or 4'th level random magic type?). Always alone, without other commanders or troops--don't know if this can be done.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arryn:
70%?!! Why? Sacred can be useful, but not so much so to almost double the cost of the unit.

Yes, actually, it is that useful. How long do your mages Last? Mine tend to Last 20 turns or so, average, I estimate. Let's compare two 100 gold mages, with level-2 water magic. One scared, one non-sacred.

Normal: Total cost after 20 turns is 233 gold.
Sacred: Total cost after 20 turns is 166 gold.

So the sacred one is much cheaper, and gets whatever bless benefits you may have (possibly reinvigoration, air shield, life after death, quickness...). Much cheaper and potentially much better!

On the other hand, giving a 70% cost hike to sacred mages:

Sacred, 70% more expensive: 283 gold after 20 turns.

That makes the sacred mage only 22% more expensive after 20 turns. With automatic quickness, air shield + shock resistance, or reinvigoration + 4 protection, a sacred mage is worth far more than 22% extra.

For research, 70% is a bit overpriced, of course - the breakeven point is 70 turns, which is too long. A 60% premium gives a 45-turn breakeven point, which might be a little more fair, considering the normal game length. But generally, as Zen mentioned, it is the cheapest mages that are used for research.

Making mages sacred without increasing the price more than a trivial amount gives the nation a huge advantage, unless the mages are inherently worthless (like Celestial Masters).

[Osium]

If I gave the impression that the Yumi was inferior in any way shape or form to a european or middle eastern bow that was not my intention.

I also did not mean "akward" in the way most people think. Not ever firing one, but knowing a little bit about physics it is hard to believe that drawing this bow back did not put unequal pressures on the wrist.

The Yumi is probably the most versatile bow of the era, allowing the user to fire in many different stances and positions. Firing a long bow while crouched was certainly not an option, but was very possible with a Yumi.

Any discussion on armor would probably be futile. The fact is the armor the japanese used changed so dramatically, from iron, laminated scale, to bamboo and then back heavy iron/steel european style clam breast plates. The later functional japanese armor was bullet proof for the era (breast piece was), as matchlock arqubusiers were being used during the period by some armies.

I suppose this means, depending on the era, you could have them lightly armored, medium armored or moderate to heavily armored ;p

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Pocus, can you explain why they should be more expensive? In terms of magic paths, 7 for 310 and 4 for 200 is actually a pretty poor cost/magic ratio when you compare it standard mages of the other nations.

Mahotsukai Master: 7 magic levels, 310 gold. High Stats, sacred.
Mahotsukai Adept: 4 levels, 200 gold. High stats, sacred.

It stems from their ice & fire immunity. Even more powerful with a bodyguard of Yamabushi monk which happens to be double-immune too (handy!). No friendly fire from area spells cast, ability of fighting under a firestorm (or just wait for your enemy to turn into cinder), immunity to the not uncommon murdering winter (and the rarer Flames for the sky) which is an equalizer against mages (one of the sole method of countering armies of 50+ mages of an enemy). I also note that they have a very good precision (13) compared to Abysia mages (7) which dont suffer from friendly fire, but are useless for evocation magic. Not yours, by far.
I strongly suggest you reduce to 50% their resistance, its too abusable really.

You failed to compare them to a mage with a fire immunity : the warlock, 270 gp, NOT holy, and 6 paths. Or the Grand Master, No immunities, 270 gp, Holy, 6 paths. Your is better, hands down!

secondary subject : Holy cost compared to non holy would be at +50% I would say.

(Its constructive critic, I dont intend to turn down your very good mod.)

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Yes, actually, it is that useful. How long do your mages Last? Mine tend to Last 20 turns or so, average, I estimate. Let's compare two 100 gold mages, with level-2 water magic. One scared, one non-sacred.

Normal: Total cost after 20 turns is 233 gold.
Sacred: Total cost after 20 turns is 166 gold.

So the sacred one is much cheaper, and gets whatever bless benefits you may have (possibly reinvigoration, air shield, life after death, quickness...). Much cheaper and potentially much better!

For research, 70% is a bit overpriced, of course - the breakeven point is 70 turns, which is too long. A 60% premium gives a 45-turn breakeven point, which might be a little more fair, considering the normal game length. But generally, as Zen mentioned, it is the cheapest mages that are used for research.

As always, Cherry, a well-reasoned reply. Thanks. It's much clearer now. I also liked the typo "one scared". I do actually have a mage with Battle Fright. heh

BTW, my mages Last well past turn 50 as I keep them researching and making items prior to that. I rarely send theme mages into combat. I use summons with magic skill for that. I also play on the Orania map, with indies at 5-7, so I have more time to develop.

With regards to using the cheap mages for research, I don't. Not until I can hire sages. The only theme mages I buy are the best ones. Each player has their own style.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arryn:
With regards to using the cheap mages for research, I don't. Not until I can hire sages. The only theme mages I buy are the best ones. Each player has their own style.

Actually, same here, since I always take drain But I'm anomalous, I think. And even drained cheap mages are good researchers once they hit level-1 and get an owl quill and skull mentor...

Which reminds me of a new magic item I'm going to add, the "Cerebral Accelerator". A helm, it doubles a mage's total research output... BUT AT WHAT COST??? Bwahahahaha!!!!

Edit. Note: I got the idea from Vernor Vinge's "A Deepness in the Sky", in which a virus is specially bred to infect people with a specialized form of autism, for use as intelligent slaves, or "thinking computers".

[ January 30, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

I'd hate to see your army when you play with Pythium or Pangaea

While it's not an 'only' thing. You can use whatever you want for researchers, you shouldn't be lowering the cost or not adjusting it to it's appropriate level because of research unless that is the nations only mage then it could be a factor. You shouldn't base a nations research only on it's top mage, even if people want to play that way

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Mahotsukai Master: 7 magic levels, 310 gold. High Stats, sacred.
Mahotsukai Adept: 4 levels, 200 gold. High stats, sacred.

I strongly suggest you reduce to 50% their resistance, its too abusable really.

secondary subject : Holy cost compared to non holy would be at +50% I would say.

---

With resists lowered to 50% for fire & ice, what would you set as their cost? I'm thinking of 475 & 300, respectively.

BTW, great point about the abuse of using the monks as bodyguards for the mages.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Actually, same here, since I always take drain But I'm anomalous, I think. And even drained cheap mages are good researchers once they hit level-1 and get an owl quill and skull mentor...

I take drain-1 too. For me, it's usually skulls and lanterns. I tend to find more imperative uses for my air gems.

Zen has his style, and you and I have ours.