OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
There is, of course, a minor point: The property in question is entirely mine, the code in question never intended for distribution.

Wrong. Like I expected, you are continuing to ignore the fact that you were also planning to destroy the user's other files.

As such, any unauthorized individual found to be running it is automatically the enemy, having stolen it from me, and deserves his fate. Destruction of stolen item was deemed to be of paramount importance, and all else was deemed collateral damage. Being that the damage was inflicted upon those also complicit, I see nothing wrong with this.

Well, you wouldn't, but that's because you have no morals to speak of, and have demonstrated that your maturity level is less than that of a 15 year old.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Wrong. Like I expected, you are continuing to ignore the fact that you were also planning to destroy the user's other files.

Clearly, you don't understand the concept. This is no different from wiring your own car with explosives and setting it such that if an unauthorized person attempts to remove it from the garage, it will explode. It's your car, you can do what you please with it, and it will be entirely the fault of whoever steals it for swiping something that will bring him harm.

Well, you wouldn't, but that's because you have no morals to speak of, and have demonstrated that your maturity level is less than that of a 15 year old.

This is an irrelevant bit of sophistry. Clearly, you don't understand the concept of deterrence and object lessons: I only had to do this ONCE, and immediately everyone who heard of it was intimidated into NEVER DOING IT AGAIN. I call this results. You may not be familiar with the background on the matter, but in the community where this occurred, the vast majority have taken my side on the issue.

Furthermore, this morality you speak of is entirely a human construct, and appears to be entirely a product of Judeo-Christianity. Being that I have never Subscribed to this, I simply don't believe in it. I have my own code, which may or may not mesh entirely with yours, and I follow it to the letter.

[ April 08, 2004, 14:21: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Karacan]

I am more inclined to sharing Norfleet's point(s), here, although my main concern is that there hasn't been anything in the ToS about data privacy. For all I know, Illwinter could grab my CD-key and sell it again because of a personal dislike or some strange buisiness scheme. Since this key is acquired on another way apart from the purchase registry, it's basically theirs to do with whatever they want.
At least MS and game companies have you sign these things noone ever reads through anyway. I don't remember clicking "yes" on anything like that by installing Dom2.

I like Illwinter, and I'd like to trust them, but in a world full of Microsofts and Blizzards, trust is a very hard thing to earn by any company who does undocumented things in a patch.

Send me a kevlar vest, Norfleet.

[JaydedOne]

Clearly, you don't understand the concept. This is no different from wiring your own car with explosives and setting it such that if an unauthorized person attempts to remove it from the garage, it will explode. It's your car, you can do what you please with it, and it will be entirely the fault of whoever steals it for swiping something that will bring him harm.

Just so you know -- while this may be true according to the laws of your own personal morality, it's illegal according to criminal code at least within the United States and the U.K. Sadly, I can't claim any knowledge for any other countries where you might reside, so if this isn't helpful for your particular situation, my apologies. I thought it might be best to give you the heads-up in case your own Mustang was in fact wired to blow.

That said, I'm not sure that this thread is serving any productive purpose at this point. Most people disagree with the intensity of Norfleet's violent reaction. Some other forumers don't. Can't we just leave it at that?

[En Forcer]

I read in my law text that booby-traps are illegal in the U.S. And also fatal car alarms.

The case they sited was this fellow in Chicago who had a shotgun wired to the front door so that it went off if someone kicked in his front door. It went off and killed some kid trying to rob his place and he was tried for murder.

I saw the system they have in South Africa. There is the one that shoots flames up the side of the car at the press of a footswitch. Frys the carjacker. And I think they have one with a fatal tazer also if you try to steal the car. Neat ideas and a great short term fix but their use would be on VERY ethically and morally shakey ground.

It's a pretty big debate and by no means settled. I'm sure there will be good points for either side as time goes on.

[Tricon]

I'm not too keen about information being passed from my machine without being asked. That's a general principle. Therefore I welcome that someone points a finger to a possible problem.
The way that has been done is not of my liking, but who cares. IW has my respect, and so far my trust - I see no reason why they should harm their benefactors (customers), especially since it seems so easy to attack other pc's without needing to sell a product first..

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

but in the community where this occurred, the vast majority have taken my side on the issue.

Nice community. Probably well versed in (software)piracy. (This is not an accusation.)

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

I have my own code, which may or may not mesh entirely with yours, and I follow it to the letter.

So if you do something that brakes with "my" code and I act accordingly, whatever I do is OK with you? Cool. Anyway, I see why you prefer playing Ermor in MP.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Miguel Duran:
Just so you know -- while this may be true according to the laws of your own personal morality, it's illegal according to criminal code at least within the United States and the U.K.

It is a sad fact of the messed-up world we live in that laws are passed that protect criminals at the expense of honest citizens. Things like this have more or less destroyed my faith in the legal system: I no longer believe it is effective or meaningful, and as such, if you want results, you'll usually have to take it up privately. Such is life. You may disagree with this, but the next time your house is being robbed, call the police, and then order a pizza. At least you'll be well-fed by the time help arrives.

Originally posted by Tricon:
So if you do something that brakes with "my" code and I act accordingly, whatever I do is OK with you? Cool. Anyway, I see why you prefer playing Ermor in MP.

I'm sorry, that didn't make any sense and I fail to see the relevance. Come again?

[Tricon]

I assumed that since you have your own codes which you follow and obviously respect, you 'ld not object on others doing the same (with their own codes).

To overemphasize I mean that if somebody shoots you (or a loved one) because you (or said loved one) have crossed the front lawn of somebody without his consent, you'ld still be a happy camper. Clear?

[Gandalf Parker]

Illwinter has been following this thread but they are headed out of town and wont be back till about Monday. The impression I get is that the reaction to this has been kindof a surprise. It is a fairly common practice now and considered not as effective but nicer to the Users than the various other schemes available.

Although I think that most of the biggies that do this have a page full of text you have to read and agree to (full of too much legal junk for anyone to bother reading) which basically ends up with "you already said it was OK".

[ April 08, 2004, 15:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Illwinter has been following this thread but they are headed out of town and wont be back till about Monday. The impression I get is that the reaction to this has been kindof a surprise.

Which I find both surprising and not surprising.

OT1H, I'm not surprised, cause many programmers/software designers are clueless about security and privacy matters. Or they figure nobody will notice or care (which is part of the cluelessness ).

OTOH, I thought the Europeans had much more enthusiastic privacy laws than we (Americans) do, so I'm surprised they would have been clueless.

I sympathize with both sides of this discussion. Illwinter doesn't want to get ripped off (and we don't want them to!). Private individuals don't want to be spied on. Coming up with things that do both is hard.