Mod: CBM 1.8 released

[NooBliss]

Oh you are so polite Rdonj. Weren't you the one complaining that TheConway was banned? I bet he was just as polite as you are. And, of course, calling somebody a fool is an even stronger argument than 'you're overreacting'. Keep it up.

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Come on NooBliss, you're deliberately misrepresenting what Soy's saying. He's a smart guy making reasonable points even if you don't agree with him - it's not helpful to keep on building straw men of what you're claiming he's saying then beating them down.

Actually, I genuinely misunderstood him. Now it's clearer, even though I do disagree with his conclusions. I can see how clams can be an equalizer instead of extending the lead. But oh well, to hell with gemgens, they are gone for good now. We were discussing hammers. And I still dont see a single valid point why they should be removed. Let's see:

Everyone uses them - that's not a big deal. They arent hard to come by or tedious to use.
They are gemgens - just not true. They improve your honest, land-based income by a fixed percentile, and only for the purposes of forging.
They worsen the runaway leader problem - no, they dont because everyone can use them. Furthermore, some nations like Mictlan just dont have many uses for hammers early in the game, while others may need hammers to 'chase the runaway Mictlan'. Or, for example, if our runaway leader went for a dom10 pathless Wyrm for an extra punch and his national mages cant forge hammers, these who can forge hammers will have an edge while catching up.
Etc etc.
So the only reason I can see is 'hammers complicate the game and everyone ends up using them anyway'.
I am really curious - how do hammers break the game?

[Edi]

Well, to get back to some of the stuff earlier in the thread, where someone asked about an edited version is anyone interested in a Piecemeal Edition of this CBM?

I did a Piecemeal CBM 1.6 and it would not be such a chore to split the 1.8 up to various components that can then be mixed and matched (including versions of items with gemgens enabled normally and one where they are artifact level).

[rdonj]

Well, I tend to post exactly as politely as the person I'm responding to, so take that as you will. Actually, you remind me of another poster on this forum who left a while back. Hmm.

Anyway it looks like you're being more reasonable now so I'll leave it at that.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by Edi

Well, to get back to some of the stuff earlier in the thread, where someone asked about an edited version is anyone interested in a Piecemeal Edition of this CBM?

I did a Piecemeal CBM 1.6 and it would not be such a chore to split the 1.8 up to various components that can then be mixed and matched (including versions of items with gemgens enabled normally and one where they are artifact level).

Not right now at least--there are some major bugs that need to be dealt with first. Also a fair amount of 1.81 is rebalancing items in an environment where there are no hammers, so it's very unclear what parts would be appropriate to separate out.

So it seems like the Tartarian change is simply a matter of degree--and it appears that further testing in MP is the only way to tell if C'tis for example is truly "too weak" lategame because of the more or less doubling in cost of Tartarians. They're normally what, 10 death 15 nature, two mage turns? Now they're ~50 death(10 gems per cast), ~5 mage turns, but you get 4 non-commander meatshields/false targets too. If it's simply that Tarts are inferior to some of the EDM summons...that's fairly easily fixable.

Similarly, I haven't really heard a convincing argument about SDRs other than that Vanheim(and maybe Jotunheim) got the short end of the stick. I think all the other nations were either not affected too badly(it slowed their momentum, but the removal of hammers and gem gens slowed everyone else's too so it's relatively unnoticed) or were already so powerful that a slowdown of their blood production was welcome. So maybe Van's commanders need to be cheaper to compensate...again some more multiplayer games with Vanheim need to happen to see how bad the damage is, especially since they can summon Asynjyas instead of *needing* to go Blood for endgame.

In my view it isn't so much that hammers are a gemgen or not, it's simply that they restrict player choices. Everyone has to obtain access to hammers or be at a rather large disadvantage. This tended to restrict options, especially pretender choice. CBM is about creating flexibility of strategy. People tended not to take Dom-10 Wyrms because they knew they would be screwed over by not having hammers(and it's still not the best idea in the world for most nations, but it's more viable). Yes, the change reduces complexity, but most of that complexity is in the form of micromanagement. There's enough micromanagement and ability to optimize still in the game that I'm not aching for more. I feel no need to spend 5 more minutes every turn juggling around which mages have hammers--I already have to do that with boosters, and I'd rather be able to spend my time scripting my armies or setting up a raiding squad.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Edi

Well, to get back to some of the stuff earlier in the thread, where someone asked about an edited version is anyone interested in a Piecemeal Edition of this CBM?

I did a Piecemeal CBM 1.6 and it would not be such a chore to split the 1.8 up to various components that can then be mixed and matched (including versions of items with gemgens enabled normally and one where they are artifact level).

For me it would be a bless. It is a pain in the butt for me to go through the one big text file to try to understand what all have been changed. I still used the CBM piecemal version when comparing stuff in CBM1.7, just tried to find the correct line in CBM1.7 and compare how things had been changed. Of course 1.8 came now with a changelog, but it seems to me not all things are in the log, so a piecemal version would be very good.

Note, I don't think I would *use* the piecemal editition to cherrypick pieces of CBM 1.8. It would just be much easier to check out things

[Soyweiser]

Jarkko, what also helps is a good text editor which can compare files. (using linux ? type "man diff" ).

That makes it a lot easier to compare changes in files. And it also is a invaluable tool to be able to use outside of mod editing.

[iRFNA]

A quick google search yields winmerge for windows. Diff is a life saver.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Jarkko, what also helps is a good text editor which can compare files. (using linux ? type "man diff" ).

That makes it a lot easier to compare changes in files. And it also is a invaluable tool to be able to use outside of mod editing.

Sure, but if I want to chek out just what happened to a given pretender chassis, it is much faster to open up the piecemal edition and check the text there. Besides, vi was good enough 20 years ago, and it's good enough still

[NooBliss]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Well, I tend to post exactly as politely as the person I'm responding to, so take that as you will. Actually, you remind me of another poster on this forum who left a while back. Hmm.

By my brilliant logics or my shining personality?

Well I didnt even speak to you, so your attack was rather... unexpected. But if you tell me were exactly I was impolite, I will try to do better in the future. Or dont, if you cant. Lets just be mutually ashamed.

[iRFNA]

NooBliss, drama trails you like a frayed cloak in the wind.