Forthcoming patch notes

[Tifone]

It takes me ages to explain my thoughts about things. Then Baalz comes and is able to say almost everything I think better and faster than me. Life is so unjust

[Rathar]

Baalz, that was perfectly put imho. Play within the parameters set before you not play with the parameters.

Although I would bump the turn limit up by a touch as the current limit is left over from previous editions of dominions and average army size has changed a bit for the greater.

[NTJedi]

Tifone said:

Obviously NOT, for this game's chosemn mechanics there is NOT plenty of time in one month (or better, in just the time that the movements of one month leave to the battle) to kill 200 units if your SCs (one of which died) weren't able to do so.

Yes, and hence lies the illogical problem which needs to be fixed.

NTJedi said:
The worst part was the enemy was routed and fleeing, my remaining SC wasn't even wounded chasing down the routing enemy... yet auto-killed because of a game turn I lost. This result is illogical and wrong.

This is a different issue we should discuss imho in a different way than the "long battle limbo" idea. I exposed the idea of routing, defeated enemies just dying regardless of the turn if they aren't able to leave the battlefield in a given time, 5 or 10 turns. Another option -while not maybe completely realistic in some other situations, for sorrounded units in fact unable to retreat and even because you won those fight anyway - was to let your SCs retreat in another province instead of disappearing. Suggestions quite more logic than changing the gameplay of all the battles negating the possibilities of reinforcements, and huge battles lasting /more/ than just a month.



[/quote]
I've been asking Illwinter for awhile to provide the auto-retreat instead of the auto-killing. Increasing the battle turns was another related issue. I would hope one of these issues is addressed within a future patch so those playing SP games and MP games can less battles where the fight is against a battlefield turn clock.

I do both MP and SP games, within my current SP game I have an enemy army of 450 troops sieging and important castle which they will storm if I don't stop them. Due to its location I only have the option to teleport 3 SCs and 1 mage(Hero- Delgnat) to try and stop them, yet here my biggest threat is the battlefield turn clock which will kill my last three golems if I fail. It's illogical for the greatest threat facing my SC golems is a game mechanic.

Tifone said:
P.S. Really - this game has a very nice, interested, respectful community. So it just strikes me that people complain the game mechanics of battle because they don't find appropriate that a mindless SC, instead of retreating like the "minded" ones, just stops working after one month of fighting if he wasn't strong enough to win.

2 SCs with a time of one month logically should be able to kill more than a 100 units during battle. Increasing the battlefield turn limit is one option for reducing this issue. If the province cannot be conquered then either they should follow instructions of the pretender who controls them and walk back to a neighboring province OR remain in limbo above the province to attack again the next turn. Nothing justifies instant death for multiple types of mindless SCs. I've even lost non-mindless SCs to a later battlefield turn limit which also kills.

Tifone said:
Isn't sending *more* or *stronger* SCs more appropriate and tactical and "pro", instead of asking that he is given the "limbo" advantage? ^_^ The other, surely important, issues (berserkers, slow retreating units) can't be possibly treated another better way?

Sending more SCs isn't always an available option... and SCs and armies should not be auto-killed from a game mechanic which cannot be explained if the game is later written as a story such as the AAR(after_action_reports).

Any improvement would be appreciated. Ideally an adjustable battlefield turn setting would provide the best long term satisfaction. Secondly the changing of auto-killing into auto-retreating would remove the injustice of wrongful deaths and is more logical as well.

[Micah]

In response to Baalz:

Improperly constructed and supported armies have a weakness in that they can't deal with SCs, so you need to deploy them with that in mind and avoid situations where they are a tempting enough target to use an SC on. I'm OK with that, that's a strategic decision when deploying armies. They'll also get screwed if a non-fire resistant army stumbles upon a bunch of abysians casting Fire Storm. It's just a weakness to keep in mind.

The current SC counters are plenty for most battles. One consideration for army builds *should* be dealing with SCs, not just having enough troops to absorbs 50 turns of losses. If you're using spearmen and your opponent hits you with a high-prot SC - well, you just got outmaneuvered.

You plan your strategies around the boundaries of the game, it seems rather silly to carry on at length about what has been a hallmark of the game since the days of its predecessor (the utility of SCs, which I understand has been toned down quite a bit, in fact.) This is a game that makes extensive use of SCs. There are a variety of counters to them. Plan your strategies accordingly.

[NTJedi]

Baalz said:
Meh, this is such a non-issue.

Mindless units and leaders have a weakness that they can't retreat, so you need to deploy them with that in mind and avoid armies that they can't damage fast enough. I'm ok with that, that's a strategic decision when deploying golems.

Not retreating is fine, yet nothing justifies or explains the instant death of these units and commanders on the battlefield. As mentioned earlier a limbo state should occur which already exists as seen when using map edit commands and placing three nations within one province.

Baalz said:
50 turns is plenty for most battles. One of the considerations for SC builds *should* be outputting enough damage, not just regenerating fast enough. If you're using a frost brand and your opponent spams you with undead - well you just got outmaneuvered.

True and since a draw occurs between both sides either the attacker should be moved into a nearby friendly province or left in limbo on top of the province to attack again next turn.
Nothing justifies or explains the instant death which occurs.

Baalz said:
I think it's kind of silly to complain that the turn limit isn't realistically modeling warfare. Come on guys, we're playing a game. Flying units teleport around the battlefield and can be attacked by melee, you die if you run away from an assassin, and its impossible to command your mages *not* to cast a specific spell.

Flying units appear to teleport because the game doesn't provide a vertical map movement, dying from an assassin by retreating is another illogical flaw discussed on the forums which conflicts with historical assassinations, and mages *not* casting a specific spell is a game limitation which should be improved possibly within Dom_4 since it's too late for the current game engine and it's been requested by many gamers.
Just because the game has illogical flaws doesn't mean they cannot be improved as seen with the current game settings verses game settings from DOM_2.

Baalz said:
You plan your strategies around the boundaries of the game, it seems rather silly to carry on at length about reinforcements and how long the fights last. This is a turn based game, combat lasts 50 turns. Plan your strategies accordingly.

It's more with creating a more logical fantasy environment. The battlefield turn limits cause illogical and unjust retreats plus some unjust deaths. Allowing the game to evolve into a better and more realistic fantasy realm is a good thing.

[Wrana]

Unjust deaths of mindless automatons which could kill many mortals but have a finite time of activity? Come on! That's among the most easily explained and logical things - if they don't have weakness in morale, they should have something else instead of it! Actually, I know a tabletop wargame which uses similar mechanism and it's quite popular.
And if Golems wouldn't have this weakness, they should be much more costly.

[Micah]

Somehow I don't see a colossal fetish attacking into +10 dominion running out of juice on turn 50 of a battle and evaporating...

[esd29a]

In an ideal world a battle that times out would result in a pseudo-seige with both armies present in province, neither side getting income or recruiting there, PD gone, each army having access to ~50% of supplies and the battle restarting on next turn. The exact units taking part in battle would depend on its place in turn order - armies present and not ordered to move away would be considered as making a distance 0 move towards the enemy, but there could be a chance for a fast army/summon reinforcing one/both side(s).
Speaking of which: what happens when a farsummon ritual is cast during a fort seige? Do the new units attack or seige? What if the walls are broken and/or the army present is set to storm fort?

[NTJedi]

Wrana said:
Unjust deaths of mindless automatons which could kill many mortals but have a finite time of activity? Come on! That's among the most easily explained and logical things - if they don't have weakness in morale, they should have something else instead of it!

These mindless automatons can survive over one thousand game turn years why the heck do you think battlefield turns would cause them to vanish from existence?


Based on their current age and old age the golem should easily survive for many many future battles.

Wrana said:
Actually, I know a tabletop wargame which uses similar mechanism and it's quite popular.
And if Golems wouldn't have this weakness, they should be much more costly.

It's not just golems which are killed. The automatic killing is illogical and unjustified considering golems and other mindless survive over a thousand game years.

[Tifone]

I exit that discussion. It's like trying to explain why a soccer match must be won within 90 minutes. Like Baalz said, this is the rule of the game, play keeping it in mind. No, let's change it! As the shoes are becoming better, players can run for 180 minutes, this will keep the game alive for years, not its flavour. If your team doesn't have anybody in attack, but everybody in defence, the match should not finish until you have done all the goals you need to win.

You can't lose a mindless SC because of the turn limit. You can even let him with just a 1dmg attack only, firepower is a useless addition. Just keep him with high regen and defense, he must fight for possibly 200 turns in just one month, if nobody is able to kill him he should never stop working - even if being mindless gives him only the disadvantage of being unable to route and plenty of advantages.

Next thing to change: the Rituals. That's "illogic" a mage casting one ritual in one month, not a rule of the game, that's a "boundary"! You can't plan your strategy around this, this has to be changed. Mages should cast as many ritual as the PC, becoming always more powerful, lets you do before imploding.

Sorry, I just became tired of this It just doesn't seem me this big problem, but for many is so, and still can't understand why, it makes perfect logic into the game mechanics.