MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for tips

[Shovah32]

Legions of steel and strength of giants are great, even more-so when combined with other buffs like weapons of sharpness(with strength of giants and weapons of sharpness you will rip through enemies)

[mivayan]

Lazy_Perfectionist -
A battlefield spell costs 1 gem(or slave) per full 100 fatigue. So 1 gem for a 199 fatigue spell, two for a 200 fatigue spell. (it's at the start of the battlefield spells part in the manual).

Only units actually wearing armor are affected by armor destroying spells, strong skin or rock bodies aren't affected.

Destruction, alt4, 40 fatigue, affects 6 squares at range 25. Both friends and foes are affected, but the mage will try to aim it at large enemy groups. Destroys armor.

Iron bane, alt6, 100 fatigue and one earth gem, affects *everyone* in the battle. Makes armor break after a good hit. Sounds pretty good used with statues. Unless the statues kills anything with one hit. Only need one mage per battle for this one... not so with destruction.

Evocations - might be needed against super high def enemies.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Mivayan- does that go down when you are over pathed?

I mean, if a spell normally costs 150 fatigue, and you have magic scale 3, and have one level in excess, do you still need gems?

Anyways.. onto my delayed and somewhat scattered mage-priest section- a final draft will be better organized.

I'll probably start a guide thread sometime next week.

Mage-Priests

Attendant of the Oracle (50,1) (L 10-0-0)
When you read the description of these guys, they come off as bootlickers, attending to every need of the Ancients, even going as far to wipe their asses for them. So, in the rare cases I do recruit these guys, that's what for. Leading 10 Ancient Ones into battle with a bless. But they're in no way superior to your standard independent priest. In fact, does anyone use them? I think they are there just in case your lab burns down.

Earth Reader (90, 1) (L 40-0-5) (EH no randoms)
They may seem rather boring with just one earth, but they are mage priests. As long as you are expecting company, you needn't fear the undead- or at least their skelly spam. Being sacred, they cost only 3 upkeep. I'd keep at least four researching in every fortress. Why every fortress, and not all in one spot? Simple. These guys transform into Earth 3 mages very quickly. Keep four boots of Earth in your laboratory. When you are going to break a siege, transfer them to your Earth Readers, script in earth power, and load in some earth gems. You can happily let them cast away at earth 3, give them a butload of gems and cast e4, or give them just enough gems to cast one e4 spell and fall unconscious/dead. They are your bottom-line mage. On top of this these guys don't start with old age. Their exact age is [insert number here] so while you need not worry about death by natural causes anytime soon, decay is [is not] a threat.

It's tough to choose between these guys and Golem Crafters early on. Golem Crafters ofter twice the research, but their advanced old age means they won't last more than a couple years, especially if you take any death scale. You'll have to keep on reinvesting. And besides, if your Earth Readers live long enough, they can get research bonuses. Your Golem Crafters never will. I'll probably settle with a few Golem Crafters to start me off quick followed by Earth Readers. Pulling some numbers out of my arse, say, a 3:1 ratio of ER to GC? I'll do the math later.

Golem Crafter (200,2) (L 40-0-20) (FWEEH no randoms)
This guy starts old. Get enough death scales, and he'll die young.
I don't have any idea why, but this guy starts out with a maul. Perhaps to beat the statues when they get out of line? Whatever. While you will be limited by your gem income, you can bootstrap yourself up to water/fire 3 much the same way, if you design your pretender with that in mind. But a lot less frequently. More on that later. These characters are useful both early and late in the game. They scale all the way into battle magic of earth 5 easy. Three if you want to save gems and not have your mage collapse in an unconscious heap. These guys are necessary for the majority of your National Summons. They have access to particular spells such as Magma Bolts that others are more familiar with. I'll revise\add my spell commentary as I get some more experience. Point is, this guy has more variety.
With Earth Boots, they can produce the Dwarven Hammer (15 earth gems) But so can the oracle. And you're likely to have 20 earth gems and Construction 3 before you have Oracles of the Ancients to spare on forging. [NOTE= Look into details of Forge Bonus. Bonus is cumulative. Is path construction bonus. Reduction straightforward? I've seen a discussion on this but can't remember. Is 50% half-cost? Linear savings?]. It's not impossible to give your Golem Crafter two Dwarven Hammers and get a 50% forge bonus. Take a Forge Lord for pretender, and you can get a 75% bonus before your first year is out.
The most likely thing you're going to forge with fire gems is the Burning Pearl. This gives a hefty +4 attack boost, and as an afterthought, 50% FR. Considering all the tempting Earth Weapons with an attack penalty, I always have a few on hand. Much later, the Lightless Lantern is available for a +6 research boost. Around the same time, though, the Shield of Gleaming Gold becomes available, and that Awe property is rather tempting.

On the water front, I haven't found much of interest in my play, yet. But I've also had bad luck on the water gem front. But the Rime Hauberk may be something to give to any Ancient Lords you have visiting cold lands. Anything you think is a water Must Forge? Ideally at 5 water gems, before Forge Bonus? Later on I'll probably have enough gems to not penny pinch, but I'm focusing most of my efforts on improving my early game.

Oracle of the Ancients (400,1) (80,30,15) (DEEEHHH w/random +10% earth,fire,water,death)

Starts sacred, with old age. Though because max age is high, isn't affected as much as the Golem Crafter.

At 400 gold, the random pick is quite weak. Though not meaningless.

+1 death will open up some important options, primarily Twiceborn (sometimes gives +1 upon death), Skull Staff, Create Revenant, Summon Spectre, Summon Mound Fiend, etc. At two death, he can bring all your other oracles up to his level and take Agartha in some interesting directions. Oh, and between a death random, Skull Staff, and spare death gems, you have D4, enough for Darkness.
An earth pick will open up Forge of the Ancients, Mechanical Militia, Riches From Beneath with Earth boots, no empowerment needed. You'll also be able to cast King of Elemental Earth, a powerful caster/potential thug. And you'll now be able to Earth Attack for a mere 5 Gems. Assassination from a distance is nice.
A fire pick will get you (new) Corpse Candles, (already have) Magma Eruptions at more of a discount. Also, Skull of Fire (+ fire)
A water pick will get you no particular spells.

All of these picks will open up some new options, especially with the Dwarven Hammers. Again, does two Dwarven Hammers count as +2 path for construction? Except water. I haven't found any reason to be happy about a random water pick. Anybody able to give me a reason?

On top of all this, you've got a level three priest. Four if you prophetize. Anybody know where I look for a listing of L4/L3 holy sites (dom3?) And how relevant the Dom2 list is? For instance, is the Temple of Time still here as H4? Any new holy sites? Any I should consider looking for/will see signs of?

Barring randoms, what do you use teh Oracle of the Ancients for?
Level 3 priest.
Summoning Umbrals and Awakening Cavern Wights and Enliven Marble Oracle
With boosts, Summoning Revenants and forging Skull Staffs, and casting Twice Born. (Gets you a handy move 3 unit).
They'll cast Blight, Dark Knowledge, Wizard's Tower (boost)
All these details and no summary? I'll need that in my final version. I'll need a basic version with footnotes at this rate. First post basic, second advanced?

[mivayan]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Mivayan- does that go down when you are over pathed?

I mean, if a spell normally costs 150 fatigue, and you have magic scale 3, and have one level in excess, do you still need gems?

The gem cost is fixed, nothing can change it. (except modding of course).

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Thanks. Any idea where there's a comprehensive list of magic sites? I've found a full list of the names, I've found a list of their powers by number code, but nothing my brain can quite parse.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Oh, and for later reference... Earth Readers Age 35.

[atul]

Whoops, my bad, I confused Readers with Crafters. I've mostly meant to say Crafters (the EEWFH variety).

Hm, anyway, I think I disagree with you regarding the relative strengths between Readers and Crafters. And I believe much of that stems from your pretender design giving Agartha poor scales. I'm thinking, what good does the Ghost King do during the first year, bar researching? You can't actually field him that early, especially with the astral and death magic only. With dormant you'd get 150 points or nearly 4 positive scale steps up. With neutral growth the Crafters aren't dying that soon, and they're superior battlefield support. Especially since they don't require anything forged.

Hm, regarding pretender design for Agartha I'm still undecided. The one Alex gave earlier, awakened immortal Oracle is about the only one I'd dare to field really early if any points are put to magic paths. The Oracle is a find, since not many immortals have all the slots and near hundred base HP. On the other hand, you could benefit to have a sitesearcher/booster forget in paths that are weak, namely fire/water/death. With single picks it's hard to get good gem income in fire or water, the death sitesearching spell requires luckily only one pick of death.

On the forging front, dont forget Fire and Frost Brands which are great given your commander thugs' low attack scores. Also Crafters forge Charcoal Shields easily.

And, two similar items with bonuses don't stack. So you can't wield two Dwarven Hammers to any extra effect.

Hm. lots of things I agree with, only sticking to some I don't because of the lack of time and the impressive amount of stuff you've put down.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I'm rather interested to hear what you have to say about Readers and Crafters. I started writing this guide to figure out the strengths and weaknesses, not because I was any good. I hadn't tried Agartha until a week ago, and if I make a whole new thread on the subject, I have no objections to borrowing someone else's expertise, if freely given.

Yeah... I knew the Ghost King was a poor choice. But that doesn't mean I didn't want to try. (I want to avoid obvious choices such as Risen Oracle, just because I'm contrary)

I was about to go into the pretender choice i picked... but before I go into any great detail about my master plans (Master as in Southparks' Underpants Gnomes
I've got step one (steal underpants) figured out, and step 3 (profit). But between there....

So... if you're in the Jaguar game, promise not to read any further, m'kay? Honor system here.

So my pretender for this game (already sent in to keep Sunday from disappearing into the abyss of pretender design and nothing else, so no chance of tweaking) is an awake Drakaina named Scylla, Patron of the Rich, Symbol of Unchallenged Victory. Scylla, is of course, a reference to Greek myth, the monster with six heads, and the dogs sprouting from her. I might have tried other things, too, but I would have been experimenting forever. So, while she's not going to change for now, I am interested in what you would have done differently with her, or suggest I do with what I've got.

She has two fire, three water, three death, and five dominion. Her scales are one order, one sloth, one turmoil, and three magic. Using some math I'll leave out for now, I can get all the way to construction four by fall. I've even done it in one practice game. So this is a research strong empire. The question of balance I'm trying to skew by sending Scylla along with my armies. She's not quite tough enough to take on the independents by herself, but once I hit const. four, she could take a water province by herself.

So while I can hit construction four by my first fall/early winter, I'm not sure that's the best way to spend my research. While I need to expand (and sloth hurts when I can only get resources from two provinces), hopefully my high research allows me to try something out. Do I let some of my mages do other things? I can pinch pennies by hiring earth readers instead of golem crafters, but given my order and sloth, I usually have enough money even to buy mercenaries. Up until I want to buy a fortress. I'm going to have to take some care in budgeting. But not as much with my previous turmoil-1, sloth-1, heat-1, death-1 pick. Rather than a significant penalty, I've got a 5% money bonus.

In the long run (dwarven hammer, construction 6), Scylla is capable of directly or indirectly getting me Demilichs, King of Banefire, King of Deeper Earth, Kokythiads, and the Water Queen. Still doesn't do much for my magic diversity, but does give me quite a bit more range in my chosen fields. That's certainly end-game though, since I'd need the gems for all that junk.

If I make it that far, I've got access to Darkness - though I'm not aiming for utterdark, as my pretender is neither blind, undead or able to see in the dark. Burden of Time would be suicidal with my mages, so thats out.

So while I have ideas about my endgame, I need to work on something a bit earlier than that or just unspecific expand, grow, conquer. Any five-point plans? I'll be thinking on what I'll be aiming for most of today, but I'm open to suggestions.

And I finally found that list of sites. In edi's sig. Which search engine doesn't include. Now, I just have to figure out the 20 sheets. But anyways, ignore my earlier question about sites. I found a rather nice one my last game, that gave me +1 gems all Except Death, Astral. And I found it with an Earth Reader, of all things.

I've done a custom sort on the sites list, tweaked the layout a bit. And its an interesting read, for sure. For instance, Water has only the one Level Four site, but its not unique, but rare, so I can get more than one, and it offers five water gems. And it can only be found on land!

Also, there's no reason to search under water with a priest of level two or above. The only underwater holy site requires H1.All the more intensive sites are above ground.

As for holying a l3 priest, to get a l4 prophet... There are two L4 holy sites. The Temple of Time and The Ward. No need to search for the Ward- it'll announce itself by smiting the undead. With its unrest reduction though, it'd make a nice place to hunt for blood or overtax. The Temple of Time... I'm uncertain about that one right now. But considering I don't need more priests, its safe not to waste a prophet searching for it. Unless it has some benefit I'm overlooking. The level three sites are nice enough , but not enough to go looking for. If I happen to have a way-to-expensive oracle searching for high-level earth sites, though...

If the unrest reduction is active all the time, you can find most of the sites by a little judicious taxation. If not... Also, earth death and fire all offer level one const bonus sites.

Theres all sorts of tidbits here... but I'd lose track of my purpose if I went on about it.

[atul]

Hm, I don't think anyone is claiming to be too expert to be wrong here, I at least err more than enough. If I come blunt it's just that English is not my native language (the usual disclaimer), so apologies for that.

Anyway, I think you've noticed too that about the only problem with using your pretender as a lone combatant is her low protection - no body slot nor earth magic. Should you manage to up her protection somehow (and get some regeneration) she's a melee monster, with fire shield, breath of winter and personal quickness. Barring that, site search, research, forging and summons then, with an assisting role in battles in a pinch. Note that if you go Evocation tree, she gets all the acid spells which are AP and armour-destructing. Very yummy.

As I said, Agartha gets nice battlefield spells early with a variation necessary for changing opponents. Human troops get stuck with Earth Meld (Alt2), high protection can be negated with Rust Mist (Evo2 if you get it to work) and Magma Bolts kill even giants (Evo3). I'd hope those would get you through early-game rush should you start near some stupid bless-nation. Note that aforementioned things rely on you bringing Golem Crafters into fray. Earth Power and Stoneskin may help with their survivability. Also, don't forget the sitesearching spells from Thau2 and Conj2.

I'm not an expert with construction magic, but I'd think if you can get a good gem income Const4 could be handy with your Ancient Lords (Frost Brand, Charcoal Shield, Elemental armor give 100% prot against two elements and fire and cold elemental damage irrespective of attack skill, just add reinvigoration). ...damn, I really need to switch to Construction in my MP game...

I think much depends on where you're heading and who is against you. Earth Meld is bound to be totally useless against Jotuns but a lifesaver against a Vanir rush. I can't tell what's the truth, just my version of it.

And what comes to holy sites, and sitesearching in general, I wouldn't stress too much of finding everything. Just use your pretender to search initially, then forge a couple of fire/water boosters to your Crafters and have them cast sitesearching spells on all your provinces.

[atul]

And, in case you didn't notice, I started this whole thread because I had no clue how to play MA Agartha and had been assigned them in Perpetuality.

Regarding the differences between Earth Readers and Golem Crafters, I think ERs come handy when you're in mid-game when the law of averages comes into play (you're more dependant on cost of upkeep and RP per gold than abilities of a single mage). That in mind, I've at least first recruited solely GCs as they're superior at least during the first year of their recruitment. Maybe when there are three castles up or so and all your battlemage/sitesearch/forger/summoner functions are filled ERs become cost effective. And, of course, during the turns when you haven't got enough money for 200 gold mage (going to be rare).