[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
That level of damage on the M1 does make more sense from a real 'anti-tank' missile, though.

Could be this?
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1784&lang=en

[Suicide Junkie]

This is why we need multiple levels of both the "armor" and "armor skipping" abilities for SE5

[tesco samoa]

Well guys and gals, the cat is about to be out of the bag. First let’s note that the LA Times just got burned for using doctored photos on the front page. Photos that were altered to show the US military in a bad light, when in fact just the opposite was occurring. Now back to the cat; CNN and MS-NBC are not showing things as they are! These terrible battles that were going to kill Americans by the thousands are in fact human wave assaults. Why do they only say that these Guards divisions are just taken out? Why do they not show how one sided the fight really is? They started the war with a reporting plan of their own, and now they run stories about how FUBAR’d the Army’s plan has become. I think that the networks are the ones with FUBAR’d plan. A plan that they used in the sixties, and grew to love. Well this is not the sixties, and this is not a police action run by McNamara and Johnson from the White House. This is not McNamara trying to send Messages with measured escalation. This is a combined arms offensive such has not been mounted in the history of man.

Soldiers from the 3rdInf are reporting mass charges against their armor. They are describing seas of body parts, yes parts, knee deep. They are using dump body trucks to haul them away. Published kill numbers for the 3rd are less than 50 KIA and 8,000 to 10,000 Iraqis KIA. These guys are massing up and trying to over-run the US positions. 300 men at a time. What a waste, this in and of itself gives us a look at what Iraq had become. To throw away the Last of your Army like this indicates that they have no intention of achieving victory, it indicates that they are going to try to go out with glory. Perhaps glory in the eyes of their god, but dead is dead. And dead from charging M-1s and Bradley’s with RPG’s is just plain stupid. Personally, were I there, I would be cleaning the sand out of my NBC gear.

Thermo's post is true....

But the picture was not shown to show the americans in a bad light.... More it was that the photographer snapped two pictures quickly and decided that if he combined them together it made a better, stronger emotional picture. Unfortantly he had a couple of duplicate people.

When this was found out. The person was sacked as per the policy of that newspaper.

The rest of his post.... Well I enjoyed the fiction as well

Keep up the Posts Thermo.... You always make me think ( except when you putting down countries ).

Thank you

[tesco samoa]

that iraqwar.ru should be read with a huge grain of salt..... But it is a blog none the less... No matter what they try to push themselves off as ....

http://www.dailykos.com/
http://www.oss.net/extra/page/
http://philcarter.blogspot.com/
http://www.agonist.org/

Much better...

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Well guys and gals, the cat is about to be out of the bag. First let’s note that the LA Times just got burned for using doctored photos on the front page. Photos that were altered to show the US military in a bad light, when in fact just the opposite was occurring. Now back to the cat; CNN and MS-NBC are not showing things as they are! These terrible battles that were going to kill Americans by the thousands are in fact human wave assaults. Why do they only say that these Guards divisions are just taken out? Why do they not show how one sided the fight really is? They started the war with a reporting plan of their own, and now they run stories about how FUBAR’d the Army’s plan has become. I think that the networks are the ones with FUBAR’d plan. A plan that they used in the sixties, and grew to love. Well this is not the sixties, and this is not a police action run by McNamara and Johnson from the White House. This is not McNamara trying to send Messages with measured escalation. This is a combined arms offensive such has not been mounted in the history of man.

Soldiers from the 3rdInf are reporting mass charges against their armor. They are describing seas of body parts, yes parts, knee deep. They are using dump body trucks to haul them away. Published kill numbers for the 3rd are less than 50 KIA and 8,000 to 10,000 Iraqis KIA. These guys are massing up and trying to over-run the US positions. 300 men at a time. What a waste, this in and of itself gives us a look at what Iraq had become. To throw away the Last of your Army like this indicates that they have no intention of achieving victory, it indicates that they are going to try to go out with glory. Perhaps glory in the eyes of their god, but dead is dead. And dead from charging M-1s and Bradley’s with RPG’s is just plain stupid. Personally, were I there, I would be cleaning the sand out of my NBC gear.

Thermo's post is true....

But the picture was not shown to show the americans in a bad light.... More it was that the photographer snapped two pictures quickly and decided that if he combined them together it made a better, stronger emotional picture. Unfortantly he had a couple of duplicate people.

When this was found out. The person was sacked as per the policy of that newspaper.

The rest of his post.... Well I enjoyed the fiction as well

Keep up the Posts Thermo.... You always make me think ( except when you putting down countries ).

Thank you

Which part is fiction, I watched tape of the fox report, and they showed one of the emails just as I was told they had. It was the one that spoke of the body parts. The photo was altered to fit the anti war view that the paper wanted. And the CF's are public record. The picture in question was altered to make it look like the civies were being held at gun point, which was not what was going on at all. So which part is fiction. Perhaps the toxins that were rooted out today are fiction. Perhaps the trace samples from the terrorist camp are fiction. I hope so in this particular case, since the stuff was there but is now gone, one would have to wonder about where it went.

[geoschmo]

I have seen the photo and I am not sure I see how it potrays the Americans in any light, good or bad. For one thing the soldier in the picture is a British soldier.

It's obvious the photographer was simply trying to make a picture that had more visual interest. I don't see any nefarious message or political slant in his choice of imagry. It was very harmless.

That being said his termination was completely right and proper. Allowing any sort of manipulation like this, even one as innocuous as this one, is something that simply should not be tolerated. It opens up too much potential for horrible abuses.

Geoschmo

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
From what I understand, their were two M1s damaged by WGMs similar in class to TOWs mounted on the back of flat bed trucks. I assume this is one of them. I don't think the trucks survived the return fire nearly as well....

What has happened to the M1 tanks in Iraq is a short fall in the tactics, not a weakness in the tank. The M1 was developed to kill Soviet armor from long range while moving at high speed. And to deal with Soviet infantry by killing their personnel carriers before the infantry dismounts. The Soviet battle plan calls for units to dive forward until halted by combat, then to stand aside and let the unit directly in trail to move forward and continue the advance. American order of battle was to kill and displace, to buy time and delay the advance, not stop it. This was designed as a combined arms engagement with air power, TOW and Dragon anti-armor weapons and tank engagements that were quick long range fights. The M1 was not designed to fight dismounted infantry. And it is poorly suited for stationary slow moving fights against these forces. The doctrine would be to blow past these guys and attack the areas to their rear, leaving them to be dealt with by our infantry. These tanks are being de-tracked by shoulder fired RPG’s and possibly by some sight guided anti armor missiles. Their defense against this is open country speed, which they do not have in these small towns. And will not have in Baghdad. In an urban fight, the tank becomes self propelled artillery. At close quarters in a stationary fight, I could have a troop of girl scouts ready to de-track tanks in about half an hour. The problem is that de-tracking does not kill the tank, so if you loose the ground, then you get to fight the same tank again the next day.

To put this in perspective, the damaging of 5 tanks in a two hundred mile, balls to the wall advance, in dismal. It shows the Iraqi army to be totally inept. They should have killed five tanks at every creek and gully along the way. They should have forced the infantry to dismount every couple of miles. Personally, it appears to me that the Iraqi’s have very little faith in their equipment and even less ability to make good use of it. This is typical of a fighting force built on the Soviet model. When command and control is removed, the individual units do not have the ability to take the situation onto their own shoulders. They are trained to follow orders, and the development of local leadership is forbidden. This is to prevent the Army from being capable of independent operation that could be directed against the government. In the urban fight that will probably be fought in Baghdad, the same short coming will be evident. The Iraqi’s will never be able to mount an integrated defense without re-establishing command and control. In Somalia, the Skinnies were able to punish the Rangers because each fighter (can’t really call them solders) instinctively knew how to best contribute to the battle based on the local situation. They had never had the luxury of command and control in battle, so they had many trained field commanders, and an instinctive knowledge of how to fight a fluid battle in their urban back yard. This had been developed over a generation and a half of fighting. Many of these 20 year old Skinnies had 10 years of combat experience, with out ever having taken an order from anyone who was not close enough to give it verbally.

I find it strange that the Soviet model can train an irregular force to be self controlled at the local tactical level, but not allow the same freedom of action to the units in the regular Army. This is an obvious result of the mistrust that dictatorial governments have of the military forces under their command.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I have seen the photo and I am not sure I see how it potrays the Americans in any light, good or bad. For one thing the soldier in the picture is a British soldier.

It's obvious the photographer was simply trying to make a picture that had more visual interest. I don't see any nefarious message or political slant in his choice of imagry. It was very harmless.

That being said his termination was completely right and proper. Allowing any sort of manipulation like this, even one as innocuous as this one, is something that simply should not be tolerated. It opens up too much potential for horrible abuses.

Geoschmo

As always, you are correct Geo. When I said American, I should have said Coalition.

[tesco samoa]

and their was a m1 that drove off a bridge... a few days ago... All crew perished...

[Thermodyne]

Yep, the reports indicate that they drowned. Some say that it was also de-tracked, which
would cause it to make a hard turn to the side missing the track. Seems to me that it would
have been a good idea to have already blown the bridge. Or at least called arty onto it once it
was lost.