No more MP for Hinnom?

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Yes they are.

I agree with Sombre here. But I also agree with Honey in that they are not that strong at the end game, and hence I don't think they really require a major over-haul.

I hate "nerfing" anything as a general philosophy unless it is ridiculously out of whack--though I understand sometimes that that is the only practicable and convenient solution.

[WraithLord]

I'm sorry but I really don't like the way the pole is presented. As was mentioned earlier in this thread the pole doesn't give any choice. I for one would have like to vote, "no, don't ban Hinnom".

Yes, its strong, very strong, but so long as MPers are aware of that you can bet Hinnom will usually get its neighbors to ally against it.

[Sombre]

People don't like being forced to double team a nation, to ally, or indeed to have to face double teams against them every single game.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I'm sorry but I really don't like the way the pole is presented. As was mentioned earlier in this thread the pole doesn't give any choice. I for one would have like to vote, "no, don't ban Hinnom".

Yes, its strong, very strong, but so long as MPers are aware of that you can bet Hinnom will usually get its neighbors to ally against it.

"Pole"? Which "way" would you prefer a "pole" to be "presented"?

Freudian?

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Sombre

People don't like being forced to double team a nation, to ally, or indeed to have to face double teams against them every single game.

Indeed. I respect the work Gandalf has put into this game--as well as this community--but his understanding of "balance" is really baffling.

[Omnirizon]

my understanding of what the dev team looks for in balance is simply that a single nation does not force most other nations into a particular course of action simply to counter that nation.

thus, why LA R'yleh and Ermor are considered unbalanced by most, because they must be dealt with very deliberately and specifically, forcing other players to take _special_ action against them, thus reducing the possibilities from the player's perspectives in the game.

I think Hinnom falls into this category too. I see some players saying "they're not unbalanced, all you have to do is have EVERYBODY gang up on them, so therefore they are automatically rebalanced." That is NOT balance. I will NOT join an MP game where the first twenty to thirty turns of my game are dictated to me by the simple presence of another nation, before the game has even randomized placement and the game world. That is not balance, and it is not good MP gaming in Dominions.

Now, I don't expect all nations to be absolutely equal either, it is simply impossible, and this is where that diplomatic balance comes into play. But no nation should crystalize the diplomatic landscape of a game into a particular form before the game even starts.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Sombre

People don't like being forced to double team a nation, to ally, or indeed to have to face double teams against them every single game.

That doesn't invalidate the point about unfair poll. Besides, ever since the early day of dom-ppp there were nations you just knew you had to team against or expect to be teamed against if you were to play them. In dom-ppp it was Ermor, now there are quite a few of them. It makes for a more interesting MP, at least for me.

[HoneyBadger]

It all goes back to Early game power, and Late game power. If a Nation is very powerful in the Early phase of the game, then it's justifiable that a couple other Nations might have to team them up to bring them down. But there should be a trade-off. Nations who start small should finish large, they should eventually "come into their own".

From what I'm reading, the problem with Hinnom is that it's always large, it always has a new trick to pull, which means that other Nations *have* to ally to bring it down-even the more powerful ones, like Lanka and Niefelheim. And I don't understand why they have such good PD. For a giant Nation to have the "best PD in the game" seems like a bit of a stretch...

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Epaminondas

Indeed. I respect the work Gandalf has put into this game--as well as this community--but his understanding of "balance" is really baffling.

That wasnt mine. That was the developers.
I just understand it enough not to pitch trying for a 1-to-1 balance.

As far as me personally, it doesnt bother me much because Im not into MP championship-ladder style gaming. Im fine with solo play, ai games, multiplayer alliances games, etc. I dont really have a problem if the diehard MPer strategy players try to get this fixed. I just like to remind some of them that isnt the only way that the game is enjoyed.

[Aezeal]

I think that Hinnom might be nerved by lowering PD indeed and maybe lowering the chariot a size and give it some more resources.

I think Niefelheim is pretty strong early game, my latest game I rushed Lanka after year 1 when I knew others where not after me and I didn't have that much opposition and hardly any losses. The giants are strong... I must say I don't see much new options for me for the late game though... just more giants and kitted jarls and just bash and hope the best of it.