newby's guide to ship and fleet strategy

[Gryphin]

oleg,
Now that you mentioned it, I saw on in the Intergalactic Daily Tribune Harald in the "Incedents Report" that his slow speed caused a pile up in a warp point and has been sent to ship design school.

(I'm only joking)

[LGM]

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix-D:


"OVERWHELMING FORCE. Brutal, direct, unsurmountable FORCE."

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

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My response to both GUTB and Phoenix-D is that the strategy of creating a massive, cheap swarm early on and building tones of Weapon Platforms to defend against it is bad while the rest of the universe is developing and expanding normally. If a player spends his first 20 turns building a war fleet in a multiplayer game, he may trash the first player he meets, but he is not colonizing anything, so his power base is not growing. The goal these games is to expand and grow. A player who spends all his resources defending against an early swarm is also seriously set back. In a two player game this strategy might work in a very small universe. I hope someone tries this against me in the Universe Cup. But in that map, the two players start 7 systems apart, but two of the lings would be two turns apart as they are on the same side of the map. I think the home worlds would be 9 turns part. By turn 29, I expect to have Minefields which are the best way to stop an early game hoard. Once minefields enter play, offensive efforts usually shut down for a while while everyone builds massive Mineclearing fleets. A typical planet can build 10 cheap minefields a turn. A mine sweeper with 5 sweaping components will need level 2 to clear one turns worth. The player who build the awful swarm will no research colonies to research Mine tech 2, 3, etc, to keep up with minefield building.

I used to advocate playing with no minefields, but I guess without them early swarms would be hard to handle. Of cource in a multi-player game, I would just find a new game if I ended up being ambushed by a early swarm, knowing that they would not survive long. I would join a new game and hope to start in a better neighborhood.

[Phoenix-D]

Question- did you actually read my post? I wasn't defending his strategy, I was ripping it in half! Please don't quote me quoting someone else unless you include my response.

"I used to advocate playing with no minefields, but I guess without them early swarms would be hard to handle."

It's handleable. WPs are the cheapest alternative. You might loose a colony or two, maybe a some minor damage to your homeworld, but if he hasn't been expanding and the attack fleet gets fried, he just wasted a LOT of time and effort.

The WPs are also cheaper to build, so you can have more of them per the same time period. And it doesn't take more to kill the offensive he described. Hell, even speed 6 CSMI ships will do- one of them can kill 3-4 of his "assult ships" if you remeber to select max range.

Phoenix-D

[GUTB]

UPDATE:

It seems I have overlooked a major flaw in my Great Armada fleet model. That is, I forgot about Crystaline Armor.

Malfor's Holy Chain Mail of Invunerablity, also sometimes known as Crystaline Armor, or CA for short, demands some changes in the design take place.

10 destroyers with x4 DUCs and x4 CAs show in simulation to ALWAYS beat 20 escorts with x3 DUCs, despite the fact that the escort fleet out-guns the destroyer fleet on a ratio of 1.5-to-1 for the same amount of tonnage.

I then made a more balanced destroyer design with x3 DUCs, x3 CAs, and put in a aux. bridge and a Capital Ship Missile to give that long-range punch, and matched them up in a fair 10-against-10 match -- the balanced design LOSSES EVERY TIME.

I then made a destroyer with x8 DUCs, and pitted them up with my original destoryer configuration. THEY PROCEED TO BE ANNHILIATED, despite having TWICE the firepower.

And then finally, I pitted the x8 DUC destroyer against my original escort design of x3 DUCs with a 2-to-1 favor for the escorts so tonnage in completely equal. THE ESCORTS HAVE A FEILD DAY WITH THE DESTROYERS despite costing a little bit more in total and having less less total firepower.

So what gives? Simple: CA is unbeatable early-game. Let's examine it; sure it weighs x3 times as much as standard Walmart armor, but the very first level gives you 100kt damage. So with four of these CAs, you have 400kt damage absorbtion. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EARLY GAME. So in a fleet of 10 Crystal Assault destroyers, you must poor 4000kt woth of damage into them before they start taking damage. So, in one comabt turn, my fleet can take 4000kt before EVEN BEING DMANAGED. SO take your "balanced" approach and chuck a few capital missiles and try to fight "smart". Unless you have CAs like me, you are DEAD. And if I go really all-out, figure I can have a fleet of 15 CA Destroyers + support ships in twenty turns. This si made possible by canibalizing everything for 150% research and 150% construction aptitude.

And once I get shieilds -- FEAR.

So, supreme firepower is still supreme -- it's jsut that you have to take into account the WONDERFUL MAGICAL POWER OF CA.

[Suicide Junkie]

Woah, there.
Your simulations seem to be very biased! You've got battles with armor vs no protection!

Compare CA to the Walmart armor.
CA 1: 100hp in 30KT.
WA 1: 90hp in 30KT.
WA 2: 105hp in 30KT.
WA 3: 120hp in 30KT.

Get regular armor for a fraction of the research cost, and get way more hitpoints!

Crystalline armor's advantage only appears once you've got at least one shield generator in the mix, to make use of the crystalline effect.

[Phoenix-D]

As long as you're talking armor, try Organic. Organic armor w/ no weapons ships make really handy battering rams. That extra research cost really kills the "rush" idea though.

"SO take your "balanced" approach and chuck a few capital missiles and try to fight "smart"."

Heh. Screw the balanced approach, it's not a good idea. Specialization. Just ran a test. 10 destroyers armed with 4 CSMI, speed 6, destroys your "uber crystal" ships almost 100% of the time. Most of the time they don't even loose a ship doing it! And these ships can be built much sooner than your destroyers.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

"comabt turn, my fleet can take 4000kt before EVEN BEING DMANAGED."

Wrong. Your fleet can take *100kt* of damage before being hurt. Then you start loosing armor. Once you've taken 400kt of damage, you start loosing internal components. Your fleet isn't just one big ship!

Phoenix-D

[tesco samoa]

and if your enemy always attacks with lots of armor and shilds then a lovely super sized null should clean up that mess...... Or the often over looked temporal weapons.....

[Phoenix-D]

His attack would be too early in the game for null-space. Besides, why waste the cash when CSMI ships can bLast the attacks away until he gets PD?

EDIT: If you're speaking in general, yeah. null-space really shines when you're attacking heavily-defended targets.

Phoenix-D

[ 03 March 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[oleg]

The best way to handle crystalline armor is PPB.
Untill the guy with crystalline armor gets phased shields (looong way to research), crystalline effect gives no protection whatsoever.

I almost always finish physics I + physics II before turn 20.