Oblivion

[OG_Gleep]

alexti said:
Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

I think I understand what you were saying, but I don't understand why. What sub genres do they represent?

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

I never considered Star Control a Role Playing Game, and didn't know anyone else did either. I did a search for Star Control and Genre and it popped up a bunch of different things, including Roleplaying.
Honestly if it were released today I doubt it would be called a RPG at all. Now all types of games have "RPG elements".

Most non-linear games offer varying degrees of freedom in picking your own path through the game. Within the confines offline CRPG's I couldn't think of a example as she listed it. I don't remember Betryal of Krondor really well, but I don't think it fits her description, and I never played past Wizardry III (Might have been 2).

[Endoperez]

Betrayal at Krondor had one plot, one "main quest" that advanced the story and might give you access to new areas. But instead of e.g. going straight to Krondor in he first chapter, you could wander around and do sub-quests. When I played it, I didn't get very far in the main plot, but completed many of the sub-quests, and had just awesome equipment for my characters.

In Star Control 2, there was a similar mainplot, but it was advanced more often by discussing with other races and then completing the sub-quests that by simply collecting resources and buying stuff, although buying information could help a lot. But you could go around, to any planet, try and contact all races you wanted, fight sny races you wanted, etc. You could disregard the plot, but of course wouldn't be able to complete it - especially as the plot for once could advance even without player doing anything.

(If you think Diablo is NOT a role-playing game, despite the mechanical similarities, then a game that underlines discussion, strong plot and even rises some moral questions should be dubbed an RPG - even if the mechanics are totally different. But Star Control 2 (anotherSC?!) usn't really the point of this discussion.)

I think that's pretty similar to Oblivion, actually. You have a main quest, which you eventually want to complete, but you can wander around and enjoy the many subquests and the many areas which are optional - at least at this point in the game.

[OG_Gleep]

I don't know if its me or you but you seem to be taking everything I have been saying too far to the right and out of context.

A crappy plot didn't make diablo an Action-RPG. Its gameplay did (An action game with RPG elements). Just like a crappy battle or loot system doesn't make a rpg "traditional".

The context of what I was saying was SC comparing Diablo to WoW, and my point was thats not a fair comparison to make, as they are two totally different games types, with different core goals that decisions are based off of.

Its like trying to compare apples and oranges because they are both fruit, or they both grow. Its possible, but not exactly fair.

I am currently not happy with the loot table in oblivion, not the system. The system is perfectly fine, and the problem would be remidied with more options.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Talking about Star Control does not aid this discussion either. The topic was whether Oblivion's skill system is broken, and Star Control has no skill system at all. You sure can improve your precursor battleship, but I think most people fight the battles with normal ships instead of the flagship.

However, if we speak about broken game mechanics, Star Control 2 would be another nice example. I completed the whole game using only the Spathi Eluder, and the AI has no way to handle the "fly away and launch torpedos backwards" strategy.

Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) + Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.

[Endoperez]

OG_Gleep said:
I don't know if its me or you but you seem to be taking everything I have been saying too far to the right and out of context.

A crappy plot didn't make diablo an Action-RPG. Its gameplay did (An action game with RPG elements). Just like a crappy battle or loot system doesn't make a rpg "traditional".

The context of what I was saying was SC comparing Diablo to WoW, and my point was thats not a fair comparison to make, as they are two totally different games types, with different core goals that decisions are based off of.

Okay, I misunderstood your point about Diablo, and mechanics' role in defining genre. And it seems I should just learn to stay out of discussions that stray too far from the games I actually know well. I reread what you said about players' part in the games' internal economy, and I still don't get that. I enjoy Diablo/roguelike item generation, and I just don't see why that is bad in a MMORPG.

I'll try to refrain from posting. I should have better uses for my time than arguing about games which I haven't played. I have a nasty habit of just arguing for the sake of the argument, and it seems I have too much free time. Maybe I should just read a book.

[Cainehill]

PrinzMegaherz said:
Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) + Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.

Note that they did improve the skill system in later patches, making it so that every skill affected something else : for instance, every point in the lowest level necromancer bone spray skill wound up improving bone shield (significantly), and bone spear / bone spirit by a percentage. Gave more options, but in a sense just made _new_ must have combinations of skills.

And the skill system had another benefit in a way : because players would get to level 50 and realize their skills sucked, they'd start a new character out. People got a _lot_ of gameplay from Diablo II experimenting with different skill sets and builds. Plus, as people have mentioned, the item drop system was amazing (not counting ninja looters ).

[PrinzMegaherz]

Cainehill said:

Note that they did improve the skill system in later patches, making it so that every skill affected something else : for instance, every point in the lowest level necromancer bone spray skill wound up improving bone shield (significantly), and bone spear / bone spirit by a percentage. Gave more options, but in a sense just made _new_ must have combinations of skills.

And the skill system had another benefit in a way : because players would get to level 50 and realize their skills sucked, they'd start a new character out. People got a _lot_ of gameplay from Diablo II experimenting with different skill sets and builds. Plus, as people have mentioned, the item drop system was amazing (not counting ninja looters ).

Hm, maybe I should install Diablo 2 one more time and look at that new system. I love the cut scenes

[DominionsFan]

Imho old wizardry games were the best RPGs. Oblivion is an action RPG for me, it is not a real hardcore RPG. Personally I really missed the good old RPG games, I havent seen a decent RPG in the last 2 years.

Look at this "low budget" RPG:

Blades of Avernum:
http://www.avernum.com/blades/index.html

I swear this is much better as an RPG, then the new "high tech" RPGs. If you like RPG games, this is a must have.

[Oversway]

Avernum is great. I have the first 3, although not Blades or Avernum 4, which I think recently came out.

[OG_Gleep]

Its not bad per se, actually Guild wars uses a similar system of prefix/suffix randomness, and a fixed loot table for unique skill drops. The system was implemented well, but the economy was very unstable. Only the best items really had a stable market, items deemed less then uber, seemed to fluctuate. This would be a fair comparision to draw off of when talking about WoW or other MMO's because of similar considerations and such. Another good example from the two games that SC touched on is vendors. Guildwars has item enhancements...I forget what they are called. They used to have a market, until they introduced a NPC vendor that sold them. That essentially killed their value in the market all but the top tier became worthless.

I don't mind debating or arguing and I get that you were trying to make a point. Its just you seemed to misunderstand what I was saying in the first place, and I was trying to determine if it was my posts or how you were reading them.

And I disagree that SC is anything like oblivion, and I honestly don't think its a roleplaying game. That just my opinion.