OT:US don't qualify for EU membership, don't spank children, WW2 history.

[tesco samoa]

The problem with the summer campaigns of 42 were that the objectives were too great for Army Group Centre and Army Group South to complete.

The troops were still recovering from the winter battles. Runstead, Guidarian. Fired. Tank production was still around 400 a month. Now Hitler wished for chassises to be used to mount motors/ fixed guns ( which competed against regular tank chassises ) By summer 42 only 4500 tanks had been built. ( This shows you that the German Govn't underestimated the strenght of the tank and its role ) Russia was building half of that number a month and increasing.

Army Group Centre goal after Stalingrad was to push south.

I guess what i am saying is the the goals set in stone by the okh and hitler were unattainable with the standing army in 42.

Had the city fallen in the month of Novemember The Russian Armies would have been forced to attack the northern and southern flanks earlier.

I believe the outcome would have been the same. As the option of manoverablilty had been removed from the german field commanders. And this is a very important decission to be analyzized while looking at what if's.

The German Military was streched beyond its capacity in 42.

[geoschmo]

I'm sorry Oleg. It's normal for people to feel pride and all in their country. But realistically the war came very close to being a disaster for Russia. Our discussion was not meant to insult you or your country. There is no shame in admiting it. In fact you can be that much more proud that despite how bad things were they prevailed.

The loss of Stalingrad wouldn't actually have been as devastating as the loss of the soldiers defending it. Moscow is the same way. Once you capture the armies and the cities in a war, it's over. You said yourself, there was nothing east of Stalingrad. The Soviet government may not have offically capitulated, but with no more armies or or industrial capacity west of the Kamchatka peninsula, and no effective means of transportation accross the vast middle of the country except for a few easily defended or destroyed roads and railways, they would have been irrelevant to the events of the rest of the war in europe.

Likely there would have been resistance movements and pockets of figthing, as there were in all the occupied countries. But without outside support those are merely distractions.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
The German Military was streched beyond its capacity in 42.

That was my original point. If as the supposition stated the French and English had not given Hitler an ultimatum after Poland, would he have continued east and attacked Russia witout conquering western Europe? If he had there would have been no stretching thin. He would have had the full force of his armies undepleted by the battle in France and Belgum, and undiluted by the need to defend his western flank from invasion from England. Not to mention it would have likely come earlier in the course of the war, before the Russians came close to developing the tank technolgy that helped turn the tide.

You could argue that if this happened he would have still had to protect his flank from an invasion from France. But if the western allies had not held firm over Poland who was an ally, why would they have done so over Russia who wasn't?

Geoschmo

[ July 27, 2003, 14:02: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I'm sorry Oleg. It's normal for people to feel pride and all in their country. But realistically the war came very close to being a disaster for Russia. Our discussion was not meant to insult you or your country. There is no shame in admiting it. In fact you can be that much more proud that despite how bad things were they prevailed.

The loss of Stalingrad wouldn't actually have been as devastating as the loss of the soldiers defending it. Moscow is the same way. Once you capture the armies and the cities in a war, it's over. You said yourself, there was nothing east of Stalingrad. The Soviet government may not have offically capitulated, but with no more armies or or industrial capacity west of the Kamchatka peninsula, and no effective means of transportation accross the vast middle of the country except for a few easily defended or destroyed roads and railways, they would have been irrelevant to the events of the rest of the war in europe.

Likely there would have been resistance movements and pockets of figthing, as there were in all the occupied countries. But without outside support those are merely distractions.

Geoschmo

Was there any industrial capacity left in Moscow?
I thought it was all moved east in case Moscow would fall.
Wasn't the Soviet army bad trained and under equipped? In that case it wouldn't be very hard for Soviet to fill the ranks again as they had a vast population to recruit from.

So I also belive that even if Stalingrad and Moscow had fallen the Russians would have eventually recaptured it.

(We've fought them all our history until we stopped fighting almost 200 years ago (our Last war was with Russia, and when they set foot on Swedish soil we realized war wasn't for us....) , and they've always retaken everything we've occupied, even if it took them hundreds of years to do it sometimes!)

[ July 27, 2003, 14:48: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Erax]

I've seen this discussion among many wargamers. The consensus seems to be that the Germans could have won IF they had planned for a 2-year campaign from the start. By spring 1942 they still had the upper hand in the East, but the chances for victory were remote.

For a good East Front simulation on the computer, try Gary Grigsby's War in Russia. It is too large and complex even for me, but some of you might like it.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Was there any industrial capacity left in Moscow?
I thought it was all moved east in case Moscow would fall.
Wasn't the Soviet army bad trained and under equipped? In that case it wouldn't be very hard for Soviet to fill the ranks again as they had a vast population to recruit from.

They were only able to do that because they had the industrial capacity to begin with, and the troops avaialabe to allow them to slow the Germans with a fighting retreat.

The location of Tankagrad was chosen because it was far enough east to avoid German air power, but still close enouhg to support the defenders of the western Russian cities. If those cites had fallen and the armies captured or destroyed there would have been nothing between the Germans and the relocated factories. They would have been destroyed by waves of German bombers taking off from the captured airfields east of Moscow.

There would have been nothing to move farther east, and nowhere suitable to place it. Even if there were the Russians would have nothing to slow the German persuit. You can move an armored division faster then you can a factory.

As poorly prepared as the Russian army was at the begining of the war, it was still the cream of the crop that they had available. Some training is better then none, and with no industrial capacity at all there would be no way to equip them. Determination and patriotic ferver won't do much to stop a bullet. You have to have something to fight back with. Hammers and scythes against Tanks and machine guns isn't going to do much.

And actually east of Moscow there was no vast population. As oleg alluded to it's mostly undeveloped wilderness and rural areas. At least that was the case during the time we are talking about. I don't know if it's much different now or not.

Geoschmo

[ July 27, 2003, 15:18: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Slynky]

Originally posted by oleg:
No question, total nuclear war is the end of the mankind. I know very well the actual reason behind SDI is a noble one and has nothing to do with underminding the world security. However, that can become a side effect and a very serious one. OK, US will become secure against Noth Korea missiles.
But take a place of Chinese Gensek (sorry, don't know his name). How can he be sure it was not just a ruse to nullify China' arsenal ?? His first and totally justified reaction would be to review and modernize his nuclear deterrant.

Well, I don't have the education and knowledge that others here seem to have. However, from my time in the army and my time in ASA, INSCOM, NSA, etc., I think I can safely say worries of missile delivery systems are misplaced a bit. More likely, IMHO, the "world" needs to worry more about tactical nuclear devices (some call them "backpack warheads") and devastating biological poisoning.

With the number of people around the world that hate the US and the (seemingly) unending number of people who are willing to give their life in order to take lives and cause destruction, I'd say THAT is the "delivery system" we (speaking from a US POV now) should fear. And, THAT'S a hard "delivery system" to halt.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Slynky:

quote:

---

Originally posted by oleg:
No question, total nuclear war is the end of the mankind. I know very well the actual reason behind SDI is a noble one and has nothing to do with underminding the world security. However, that can become a side effect and a very serious one. OK, US will become secure against Noth Korea missiles.
But take a place of Chinese Gensek (sorry, don't know his name). How can he be sure it was not just a ruse to nullify China' arsenal ?? His first and totally justified reaction would be to review and modernize his nuclear deterrant.

Well, I don't have the education and knowledge that others here seem to have. However, from my time in the army and my time in ASA, INSCOM, NSA, etc., I think I can safely say worries of missile delivery systems are misplaced a bit. More likely, IMHO, the "world" needs to worry more about tactical nuclear devices (some call them "backpack warheads") and devastating biological poisoning.

With the number of people around the world that hate the US and the (seemingly) unending number of people who are willing to give their life in order to take lives and cause destruction, I'd say THAT is the "delivery system" we (speaking from a US POV now) should fear. And, THAT'S a hard "delivery system" to halt.

---

The shipping container bomb is much worried about. Buried under a stack of other containers, it would be very hard to detect. That is why we need to begin to look at the threat from a different angle. The only defense is deterrent. We return the favor 1000 fold. You’re not actually from any one country, no problem, we have more than enough to go around. And let’s not forget that if NY or LA, or even Baltimore were to be nuked, there would be no need for smart bombs. We would be back in the business of making civilian populations suffer. If it were a chemical/biological attack, our stated policy is that we will respond with our nuclear arsenal. Do any of you have any idea of how bad it would be if a several kiloton device went off in Baltimore harbor? How many people live between there and Boston? Where would they be moved to?

SDI is not intended to stop terrorist, other than if they were to seize a silo somewhere. Its intent is to reduce the diplomatic influence that small nuclear arsenals offer to the third world. Korea has a little leverage because they can put a weapon on top of a missile. The greater the range of the weapon, the greater the influence. What they don’t realize is that we are old hands at this game.

Question, if an Ohio class sub were to pull up to a coral atoll, and declare itself a county. Where would this new country rank as a nuclear power?

And America has how many Ohio’s?

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It was a symbol, thats why.

Stalingrad was the historic gateway to Asia. This is why it was fought over so many times in the past. And with ½ a million people, it was a major city by anyone’s standards. A quick look at the map will show that once the Volga was crossed, there were no natural defensive lines on the way to Moscow. Originally, the mission was to continue on and secure the resources of the region. But this had changed, 6th was going to be sent north to the capital in the spring. This was known in exacting detail by the Russians because of Lucy. The Germans had no intention of taking the whole country; they expected a negotiated peace on their terms. This was how war was fought in Europe at that time.

[primitive]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
The only defense is deterrent. We return the favor 1000 fold. You’re not actually from any one country, no problem, we have more than enough to go around.

Do you really think that such policy will scare madmen away from terrorist actions against the US ? Remember, we are talking about suicide bombers here. People who are mad enough to hijack planes and crash themselves into buildings. People who are mad enough to train their children to strap on a bomb and blow up a bus or a cafe.