[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

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More recently, it appears that none of the millions of antiwar demonstrators have a bad word to say about Saddam Hussein nor an iota of sympathy for those oppressed, tortured and murdered by his regime.

As has been mentioned several times lately, an anti-war stance is NOT a pro-Saddam stance. He is a monster, but I don't believe for one minute that the proper way to get rid of a monster is to feed him to an even bigger one.

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The reason this keeps comming up I think is that fankly a lot (not all by any means and probably still a minority) of anti-war protesters are pro-Saddam. I read a poll taken after the war that said that 33% of people in France and and even higher % in Russia actually wanted the coalition to lose the war!! That's pretty pro-Saddam in my book. Your own post, which is a bit cryptic, seems to say that you prefer Saddam over GWB???

[Unknown_Enemy]

t 33% of people in France and and even higher % in Russia actually wanted the coalition to lose the war!!

The poll and the number are truth.
But what is missing is that the poll was made right after a US senator declared that France was now a strategical enemy of the USA.

[Andrés]

I know MB Perhaps I should have put more smilies to show I was kidding.
My point was that it wasn't a good excuse because it would piss off a potential ally (no matter if insignificant).

We all know it was "the hand of god" because Maradona is God

Espero que ni vuelva el capicua que ya hizo suficiente bolonqui en su momento ni que haya una invasión a Siria en la que decir o no presente. (también espero ganar el quini y no tener que seguir laburando)

DavidG, the reason is that pro-war militants allways think that anyone not supporting them is supporting the enemy.
Note there's also a difference beteween anti-american and pro-saddam.
Many in France and Russia are anti-american and would like to see them lose anywhere.

[primitive]

Aloofi:
For the twentieth time...

DavidG:
For the twentyfirst time...

Even a statement that you wanted the US to loose (BTW, I was not among them), is not (nesecarily) pro Saddam. It may just be a choice of the lesser evil. A local badguy without the means of hurting anyone not in his imediate vicinity, over a mad Texan with the migthiest armed forces in the world and the will to use them for no particular reason at all.

Fyron:
Your welcome.

Hunkpapa:
Introducing democracy in the region ? What about Afghanistan ?
It is now almost 16 months since the appointment of an interim (read “puppet”) government in Afghanistan. The goal was to have general democratic elections within 18 months. I did a quick search and could not find any information of a planned election. I don’t say Kasai’s government is a bad choice, it’s probably the best possible solution at the moment, but broken promises are not the way to teach the region the great benefits of a democracy lifestyle.

Thermodyne:
The news you promised we would get Last evening. The news that would break goverments and prove once and for all the USA was right, didn't make my local news here in Norway (censorship ?). Would you mind updating me.

Geo:
I owe you an apology. I have basically reread the whole thread, and you have always beem clear and consistent in your statements. Of course I disagree vehemently with you .

[DavidG]

Originally posted by primitive:

DavidG:
For the twentyfirst time...

Even a statement that you wanted the US to loose (BTW, I was not among them), is not (nesecarily) pro Saddam.

Yea I heard you the first 20 times. It is really not necessary to repeat it over and over. For the 22nd time I agree being anti-war does not mean you are pro-Saddam. I also happen to think that anyone who is so intensly anti-American that they actually wanted Iraq to win the war is pro-Saddam.

[rextorres]

Primitive,

SOME pro war people aren't going to change their minds even though the reasons for the war have proven to be erroneous - I won't produce the laundry list. Who wants to admit they are wrong? Bush got us in this war so now they have to support it no matter what. They are doing the same thing I am sure MOST of them claimed Clinton supporters were doing during Monicagate. The only difference is that the way Bush has lied is a lot worse.

Their attitude is irrational so why continue the debate?

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by primitive:
Aloofi:
Thermodyne:
The news you promised we would get Last evening. The news that would break goverments and prove once and for all the USA was right, didn't make my local news here in Norway (censorship ?). Would you mind updating me.

I think we all have access to un-censored news. In this case, the UN’s team issued a public statement/request and then the news just stopped. Looks to be locked down tighter than what the Soviets had taken away from them on the road to Syria.

What has made the news is that some detectors set to look for Plutonium were set off at a plant that the inspectors had declared clean, but it was in an area that they may not have known existed. An announcement was made and the UN’s regulatory team stated their intent to take over. I doubt that will be allowed to happen because of the national make up of the group. All of this made the tube on Friday. But then the news just stopped! This can mean a lot of things, one or two good and the rest very bad. But it does show that the inspectors were not inspecting properly. Two previously inspected facilities have been found to be in violation of the cease fire accord. Both were cleared by the inspection teams in the Last few months.

We now have two news blackouts in this war. What is going on with the (alleged) Plutonium and what was taken from the Russians on the road to Syria?

http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Press/.../prn0304.shtml

I just got this link; man these guys have lost their signs! The materials were under IAEA lockdown, but the IAEA was gone. I guess they just trusted Saddam to stop his research and assumed that he would no longer try to build a bomb. I’m not a nuclear physicist or engineer, but even I know that Plutonium is not something that can be easily overlooked during an inspection. And it is not the type of stuff that can be hidden in a tool shed. It can reach critical mass in very small amounts, and particles of it can kill when inhaled by humans. Strap a few grams of this stuff to some Nitrate bombs and you could cause a real big problem.

[geoschmo]

Thermo, I as well await a thourough accounting of the nuclear site, but it is way to early to be claiming any sort of coverup. It's entirely possible that the fleeing Iraqi's or even coalition forces broke open some containers with plain old waste products and that is what could be causing the high levels of radioactivity.

What everybody needs to understand is this process will take some time, just as those attempting to inspect before the war were saying. But at least now that we don't have the regime actively working to deceive the inspectors there are better prospects for finding the truth.

So far the coalition forces have found hundreds, by some accounts over a thousand sites of interest. Of these only a couple dozen have been thouroughly inspected. This would be a slow process under good conditions, in the middle of a shooting war it's even slower.

Geoschmo

[tesco samoa]

yea rex i believe the anti war people stated their ground on the immense human suffering war would bring and the consequences of the war.

I am sorry to say this Rex but your country reminds me of another country in the 30's... In its early stages. Pray that the orange smoothie never hits red alert. The concept of a police state scares me. They have had the practice in the inner cities for years. But hey it can't happen here. People are not being picked up by the govn't without due process. Nah... Not here. Drummed up enemies everywhere you look. The agencies that failed you in the first place need more money as a small threat becomes the uber threat of all time , and endless in its reaches. America to me is almost the classic dictonary form of fascism. Traits of classic fascism include: strong nationalism, expansionism, belligerent militarism, meshing of big business and government with a corporate/government oligarchy, subVersion of democracy and human rights, disinformation spread by constant propaganda and tight corporate/government control of the press.

Then again I could be rambling on.... But it is a thought siting their in the back of my head....

So I post it here. To be slammed and agreed upon. Or I just want to keep this thread going and going and going.

P.S. 1 week has gone by and their is still no democracy in Iraq.... Just Chaos... And whats with bringing the Baath Party leadership back to help form this 'democracy' Wasn't that the 3rd reason the war was for, to rid the Iraqi people of the brutal regime that was in charge... This is just beginning.

[Baron Munchausen]

Tesco, you missed 'demonizing any form of opposition as traitorous'. If you don't agree with the war plans of The Great Leader you are automatically a beady-eyed communist secretly plotting to over-throw the government by using the anti-war protests as front.

Speaking of Clinton, there is a growing movement to use the impeachment process properly, that is to boot criminals out of office instead of harrass the politically undesirable. Check out:

www.votetoimpeach.org

for example. This is 'grass roots' though I'm sure the attack-dog press can find some evil communist links. Anyone not actually in the ruling corporate elite has got a second cousin's friend's friend who was once seen reading Das Capital... But some members of the US Congress are also daring to say the word 'impeachment' out loud occasionally. I'm sure they will be called communists in short order. You'd think the neo-fascisti could find a new buzz-word more than a decade after the fall of the Evil Empire, wouldn't you? Ah well. If it grows to the point where actual hearings can be held we'll be in the fun position of watching Ari Fleischer playing the Iraqi information minister and denying that the Congressional Infidels are anywhere near the impeachment process.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the reports of 'finds' at Iraqi sites. Any nuclear facility is going to have hot spots. Especially one run by cronies of a third-world despot. They were not chosen for proven abilities but loyalty, remember. He would have to have the best party loyalists in charge of his nuclear programs. They are not likely to have been especially competent and spills of radioactive material do not make 'proof' of a weapons program deliberately over-looked by the IAEA. Of course, the US Military is now in complete control of all those sites and it's not unlikely that 'interesting' things will appear in the future. I'm not sure how well the origin of refined nuclear materials can be traced. Does anyone know if chemical traces can be used to identify the original ores or the refining processes used? It might be that they can get away with planting what they need to find.

[ April 13, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]