[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

Che Andrés, tranquilo!!! Además, si el Turco vuelve seguro que en la invasión a Siria, Argentina dice PRESENTE!!!

Quien es el Turco?

[Aloofi]

It seems like Al-Jazeera have already "found" the first signs of anti-US feelings in Irak's civilians........

Quote:
"Anti-US protest in Baghdad

A noisy crowd of Iraqis gathered around Baghdad’s Palestine Hotel and raised anti-American slogans on Sunday, signaling that the popular mood in the besieged capital was fast turning against the US troops.

Fed up with the anarchy and looting as also the breakdown of essential services ever since the start of the war, the protestors yelled that the US troops were doing nothing to help restore normal life in the city.


“They are guarding oil facilities, but have not done anything as yet to restore essential services like power and water, “ alleged Ali Zuhair. Another of the protestors said that the “Americans were interested only in oil.”

Stung by the pitch of the protests, US soldiers quickly set up barricades round the hotel to keep the protestors at bay.

But the US soldiers could do little to silence the protestors. They shouted slogans in praise of Iraq and warned against any attempt to thrust upon the Iraqis a military of a “foreign” government.

“Iraq, you are our beloved country and your sun will never set,” they chanted.

As everyone in the crowd expressed their collective dismay over the anarchy, one university teacher said he had witnessed some US soldiers encouraging the looters to plunder a university.

“I saw for myself how the US troops goaded Iraqis to loot and burn the University of Technology,” claimed the professor Shakir Aziz.

Elsewhere too, Iraqis both inside and outside of Baghdad poured scorn over the US and British troops for having done precious little to prevent the country from spiraling into lawlessness.

The dean of Basra university, Abdul Jabar al-Khalifa was gripped with rage as he surveyed the charred remains of what once used to be his office. “Is this freedom of Iraq or the freedom of thieves,” he questioned.

Southern Iraq’s prestigious university has suffered terrible losses in the anarchy that followed the war. Looters over ran it and computers, air conditioning units and furniture were carried away before the mobs set large parts of the campus on fire.

The disconsolate University dean was convinced that the British were to be blamed. “They didn’t do anything to stop the looters. I hold them therefore responsible,” he said.

Other Basra residents were equally bitter of the British troops. “They did not make any effort for the first few days. They did not move until too late,” alleged Al-Habib, a US-returned academic.

As in Basra, many in Baghdad have begun to eye the foreign troops more as villains than “liberators.”

“The Last few days have been worse than all my days under Saddam,” insisted Ahmed al-Khatib, an elderly resident.

Many also suspected sinister designs behind the lawlessness. In between patrolling his neighborhood of Al Mansura against looters, Ahmed Aziz al-Hadithi alleged that “the looters were spies bought off by those who wanted to destroy Iraq.”

“One day or another, honest Iraqis are going to force out the Americans, not for the sake of Saddam Hussein, but for the sake of Iraq,” Hadithi said. --- Al Jazeera with agency inputs

[Aloofi]

From the Observer:

Welcome Aboard The Iraq Gravy Train


Well, the war has been a huge success, and I guess it's time for congratulations all round. And wow! It's hard to know where to begin.
First, I'd like to congratulate Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) and the Bechtel Corporation, which are the construction companies most likely to benefit from the reconstruction of Iraq. Contracts in the region of $1 billion should soon coming your way, chaps. Well done! And what with the US dropping 15,000 precision-guided munitions, 7,500 unguided bombs and 750 cruise missiles on Iraq so far and with more to come, there's going to be a lot of reconstruction. It looks like it could be a bonanza year.
Of course, we all know that KBR is the construction side of Halliburton, and it has been doing big business with the military ever since the Second World War. Most recently, it got the plum job of constructing the prison compound for terrorists suspects at Guantanamo Bay. Could be a whole lot more deluxe chicken coops coming your way in the next few months, guys. Stick it to 'em.
I'd also like to add congratulations to Dick Cheney, who was chief executive of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000, and who currently receives a cheque for $1 million a year from his old company. I guess he may find there's a little surprise bonus in there this year. Well done, Dick.
Congratulations, too, to former Secretary of State, George Schultz. He's not only on the board of Bechtel, he's also chairman of the advisory board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group with close ties to the White House committed to reconstructing the Iraqi economy through war. You're doing a grand job, George, and I'm sure material benefits will be coming your way, as sure as the Devil lives in Texas.
Oh, before I forget, a big round of appreciation for Jack Sheehan, a retired general who sits on the Defence Policy Board which advises the Pentagon. He's a senior vice president at Bechtel and one of the many members of the Defence Policy Board with links to companies that make money out of defence contracts. When I say 'make money' I'm not joking. Their companies have benefited to the tune of $76bn just in the Last year. Talk about a gravy train. Well, Jack, you and your colleagues can certainly look forward to a warm and joyous Christmas this year.
It;s been estimated that rebuilding Iraq could cost anything from $25bn to $100bn and the great thing is that the Iraqis will be paying for it themselves out of their future oil revenues. What's more, President Bush will be able to say, with a straight face, that they're using the money from Iraqi oil to benefit the Iraqi people. 'We're going to use the assets of the people of Iraq, especially their oil assets, to benefit their people,' said Secretary of State Colin Powell, and he looked really sincere. Yessir.
It's so neat it makes you want to run out and buy shares in Fluor. As one of the world's biggest procurement and construction companies, it recently hired Kenneth J. Oscar, who, as acting assistant secretary of the army, took care of the Pentagon's $35bn-a-year procurement budget. So there could also be some nice extra business coming its way soon. Bully for them.
But every celebration has its serious side, and I should like to convey my condolences to all those who have suffered so grievously in this war. Particularly American Airlines, Qantas and Air Canada, and all other travel companies which have seen their customers dwindle, as fear of terrorist reprisals for what the US and Britain have done in Iraq begins to bite.
My condolences also to all those British companies which have been disappointed in their bid to share in the bonanza that all this wonderful high-tech military firepower has created. I know it must be frustrating and disheartening for many of you, especially in the medical field, knowing there are all those severed limbs, all that burnt flesh, all those smashed skulls, broken bones, punctured spleens, ripped faces and mangled children just crying out for your products.
You could be making a fortune out of the drugs, serums and surgical hardware, and yet you have to stand on the sidelines and watch as US drug companies make a killing.
Well, Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian President, has some words of comfort for us all. As he recently pointed out, this adventure by Bush and Blair will have created such hatred throughout the Arab world, that 100 new bin Ladens will have been created.
So all of us here in Britain, as well as in America, shouldn't lose heart. Once the Arab world starts to take its revenge, there should be enough reconstruction to do at home to keep business thriving for some years to come.

Terry Jones.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Aloofi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

Che Andrés, tranquilo!!! Además, si el Turco vuelve seguro que en la invasión a Siria, Argentina dice PRESENTE!!!

Quien es el Turco?

---

The "Turco" (Turk), is one of the popular nicknames of Carlos Saúl Menem.
He is a very controversial character in the Argentinean politic. Many people blame him for the current situation of Argentina… and although the accusations of corruption signed his 2 governments (the scandals with the weapons that Argentina sold to Croatia and Ecuador are just some part of them), still he has good possibilities to be President again.
Under his government, Argentina became a more close ally of USA, and he sent some symbolic troops in the GW1.
If I’m not wrong, his ancestors are from Syria, and the “joke” was that if he reach the Argentinean’s government and USA invade Syria, he could send again some symbolic troops again.

[dogscoff]

I did have a lenghty, informed and well-written reply ready to post earlier but the forum crashed at just the wrong moment. I can't be arsed to piece it all back together, but I can summarise the important points as follows:

1- Aloofi - sorry, no offence meant.
2- George Bush is an arsehole.
3- Tony Blair is an arsehole's arsehole.

EDIT: Oh yeah, here's number 4:

4- "I'm sure they will be called communists in short order. You'd think the neo-fascisti could find a new buzz-word more than a decade after the fall of the Evil Empire, wouldn't you?"

We do have a new buzz word. It's "terrorist": Precise enough to terrify the public into endorsing monstrosities, yet vague enough to be applied to anyone you want to bomb/ arrest/ vanish. Inspired.

[ April 14, 2003, 16:46: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[David E. Gervais]

I read this somewhere and I thought it was an eerie statement...

"We are against Dictatorship and Oppression. We believe in Democracy and Freedom. It is for this reason that we will force you to accept our way of life, weather you like it or not!

I shivered when I first read this! There is something very wrong in there somewhere!

Nuf said!

P.S. (maybe not enough)... If the Oil belongs to the Iraqi people why do they have to pay for it at the pumps? (Oh yeah, they're not paying for the oil, they're paying for the refinement process and tax!) It sounds like something is wrong in this statement too!

Poof!

[ April 14, 2003, 18:41: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[jimbob]

David:

It's not just about the Iraqi, if the oil belongs to Texans, Albertans or Saudis, why do they have to pay for it at the pump??

Because the oil doesn't "belong" to the Iraqi, Texan, or Albertan, it belongs to the government of the people, who then contract out the rights to develop the resource. The government of the people then recieves royalties on the oil extracted, but the contract holder now owns the oil. In the end, large company XYZ, who happens to own the oil/gas/petrolium product, can then sell it to individuals within (nearly) any country they desire... Iraq or otherwise. This is why everybody on the planet needs to pay out of pocket for gasoline, regardless of whether oil comes out of the ground in Eretria or their backyard.

I'm not certain what the policy is in Saudi Arabia, as the oil is owned not by the gov't of the people, but by the ruling family, the house of Saud. I would imagine that they too have contracted out the development to multinational companies, but have no proof of that.

Finally, I'm sure there are some countries that take care of all gas sales within their borders, but in that case it is the gov't who purchases petrolium products from the multinationals, and then turns around and sells to the people.

[ April 14, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[primitive]

DavidG
It is obviously important to repeat that message, even if it is tedious:
It is fully possible to be both Anti American (or more correctly Anti-GWB's "obey me, cause I got a big stick" policy) and Anti Saddam at the same time.

Using your kind of logic: Do you support the goverments (and the atrocities done by them), of all coalition members ? Logically you must since they are Anti Saddam too, but I would not believe that you actually supports the goverment of contries like Rwanda.

Rex
Quit !
I'm having to much fun

Thermo
I get the news. Think the Baron covered the "significanse" of the finds well. Of course there may be chance you are right, and something serious will be found at the plant in the future. What p.. me off is the way you presents these things. You are just adding to the general hysteria and paranoia by spreading loose rumours as facts. When you have facts, not made up propaganda, I will listen.

Tesco
Good one, but I have a little faith left in the US citizens. After all, they live in (sort of) a democracy. When they find out what the overly aggressive foreign policy really will cost them, they will get rid of GWB and his evil ogiligarchy.

Aloofi
Nice quote, obviously from a wise and well informed man.
Is this the same Terry Jones as in Monty Python ?

David
In war, truth is the first victim. Logic seems to be the second

[DavidG]

Originally posted by primitive:
DavidG
It is obviously important to repeat that message, even if it is tedious:
It is fully possible to be both Anti American (or more correctly Anti-GWB's "obey me, cause I got a big stick" policy) and Anti Saddam at the same time.

Using your kind of logic: Do you support the goverments (and the atrocities done by them), of all coalition members ? Logically you must since they are Anti Saddam too, but I would not believe that you actually supports the goverment of contries like Rwanda.

Your logic baffles me. I do not follow it at all. Your point seems to be that none of the anti-war protesters are pro-saddam. Yes absolutly you can be anti-Saddam and anti-American. However my point was that after the war has already started anyone who wanted Iraq to win is taking a decidedly pro-Saddam view. How you can get from that to me supporting Rawanda is a mystery to me.
Do you really not believe there are any pro-Saddam people in the world?

[primitive]

DavidG
Of course there are many Pro-Saddam people in the world.
But it's not all black and white, it's fully possible to be anti Saddam and anti GWB at the same time. Refusing to accept that is unlogical, just as it would have been unlogical for me to to accuse you of supporting Rwanda (which I did not do ).