[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I can't accept that the current "collateral damage" was needed to fix the previous "collateral damage".

No, no amount of Iraqi deaths in this war will bring back the Iraqi, Iranian and Kuwati dead from the past actions. Even the death of Sadam himself, though likely would be viewed as justified and neccesary by the majority of reasonable people in the world will do nothing to undo the actions which he has done. And it will not lessen the responsibility of the American government that tolerated and in many cases assisted in his murderous doings. That is something we as a people will have to face up to if we are to be honest withourselves and others.

As far as GW1 goes I believe now and believed then, as many other Americans do, that we made a huge mistake not completeing the job at the time. I dis not believe that Iraq was the lesser of two evils as Bush senior apparently did. Right or wrong our policy at the time was more about making sure the coalition members, primarily the Saudi's, were happy. They would not allow any consideration of taking out the regime.

At the very least we should have encouraged and protected the revolting Kurds and Sh'ites in the months following the war. Our failure to do so was unconsionable, and something that we are feeling repurcusions from yet in this war.

None of this detracts from our justification for taking action. This main gola of this war wasn't to liberate the Iraqi people and save them from the regime. That was merely a very pleasant side effect. If anything our poor record in the past made it mroe our responsibility to clean up the mess we made.

Geoschmo

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I can't accept that the current "collateral damage" was needed to fix the previous "collateral damage".

No, no amount of Iraqi deaths in this war will bring back the Iraqi, Iranian and Kuwati dead from the past actions. Even the death of Sadam himself, though likely would be viewed as justified and neccesary by the majority of reasonable people in the world will do nothing to undo the actions which he has done. And it will not lessen the responsibility of the American government that tolerated and in many cases assisted in his murderous doings. That is something we as a people will have to face up to if we are to be honest withourselves and others.

As far as GW1 goes I believe now and believed then, as many other Americans do, that we made a huge mistake not completeing the job at the time. I dis not believe that Iraq was the lesser of two evils as Bush senior apparently did. Right or wrong our policy at the time was more about making sure the coalition members, primarily the Saudi's, were happy. They would not allow any consideration of taking out the regime.

At the very least we should have encouraged and protected the revolting Kurds and Sh'ites in the months following the war. Our failure to do so was unconsionable, and something that we are feeling repurcusions from yet in this war.

None of this detracts from our justification for taking action. This main gola of this war wasn't to liberate the Iraqi people and save them from the regime. That was merely a very pleasant side effect. If anything our poor record in the past made it mroe our responsibility to clean up the mess we made.

Geoschmo

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This time we concur, my friend.

[tesco samoa]

fyron... it is not too way out to lunch.....

[rextorres]

Originally posted by raynor:
I think there is ample Biblical support to show that Jesus would have supported the war.

This is way off topic but Huh!?

Jesus was a pacifist. I am not a practicing Christian but after twelve years of Christian education - I would say unequivocally that Jesus would never have supported any war under any circumstances. Most Fundamentalists (especially the t.v. kind) try to point to the post gospel books and the O.T. to support war mongering.

[quote]Originally posted by MegaTrain:

Regarding eschatology (end times)--there are very very few who hold that it is our ROLE as Christians to actually BRING ABOUT the Last days by our actions or behaviour. Just because someone has a religious belief that someday the world will end doesn't mean that they are supposed to bring it about.

That may be true, but one of the reasons that the Religious right supports Israel is there belief that its existance is a sign of the second coming. So I would be willing to go out on a limb that the war in Iraq is in the back of their minds as another harbinger of the apocalypse.

[ April 16, 2003, 00:19: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
fyron... it is not too way out to lunch.....

Yes, Tesco, it is.

[tesco samoa]

[geoschmo]

Jesus was not a pacifist by modern standards. Read the account of Jesus overturning the money changers tables and drivign them out of the Temple with a whip of cords. Does this sound like the actions of a pacifist? He would likely not have actively supported the war, but you wouldn't have seen him marching in a peace rally either. He would have taught the people and encouraged them to get right in their hearts for his Kingdom was in Heaven. He would have been more concerned with the spiritual needs of the people then getting involved in the war arguments on either side. He was quite adept at not allowing himself to be trapped into hypothetical and political arguments that the Pharises threw at him on a regular basis. If given the opportunity he would have been in Bagdad, not as a human shield, but ministering to the spiritual and physical needs of the citizenry, ignoring his own personal danger. If dragged before Hussein he would have no doubt had many direct words regarding the treatment of his people. But you wouldn't have seen him on CNN espousing the virtues of military intervention either or shaking hands with Bush in a rose garden photo op.

Geoschmo

[ April 16, 2003, 00:47: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Cyrien]

So now everyone is talking about the positions of a guy who has been dead for about 2000 years and didn't write a single thing about himself or anything else in his own hand?

So we are stating what a 2000 year old dead person believed based on second and third, fourth, fifth, to the umpteenth hand information?

[ April 16, 2003, 00:55: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

[Fyron]

You are treading on dangerous ground there Cyrien...

[ April 16, 2003, 01:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Cyrien]

Hrmm... I tend to do that alot... Oh well.