P&N Pirates: too weak?

Suicide Junkie · #1 August 26th, 2001, 11:40 PM

I've been thinking about the Pirates in human vs. human play, and I'm pretty sure that they're gonna be way too weak.

Some things I may do to improve their chances:

-Allow a large & expensive colony ship.
-Give them a maintenance reduction component like the nomads have.
-Give them a level 5 cloak, civilian transponder kindathing.

What do you guys think?

Or should we just wait for PBW games to see if they need tweaking.

Matryx · #2 August 27th, 2001, 01:03 AM

I agree that the pirates are too weak. To start off with, unless they are next to a player they stand *no* chance at all to be honest.
Even when they do come across a human player, that human player usually recognises quickly that they are pirates and counters accordingly (armed escorts, fleet movements rather than lone ships and so on)
Not sure how to make them stronger though. I suggest playtesting lots of things

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geoschmo · #3 August 27th, 2001, 01:54 AM

Historically though pirates have not really been a legitamate force. They have always preyed on weak enemies and run from fights against actual military forces.

The idea has a lot of merit as a role play race though. They can be a tool of a powerful empire against an another empire. One that you don't want to attack directly.

I think they would be great in a medium to large size game where you have strong empires facing off in a "cold war" type situation. One where you want to cause your enemy problems without actually openly fighting them.

The problem may be finding players to play a race where they really have no chance of winning, only of influencing the game and having fun role playing.

Geoschmo

DocShane · #4 August 27th, 2001, 06:42 AM

I agree with Geo, Pirates should be weak. You don't play them to win. You play them to be pest. Traditionally, pirates have no national aspirations. They are a group of bandits bent on stealing what they can for themselves, without regard for others.

I just started playing them this weekend on Version 2.3. I really like the new ship movement rules. It takes a while getting used to but makes logical sense. Too early for me to suggest changes.

I would and am looking forward to giving them a try on PBW. They just made the mod available this weekend. A pirate player might benefit from allying with a stronger "normal" player. This player could then gift the pirate some worlds near to his enemies, so that the pirate could assist in the struggle. This is a level of coordination that you rarely see in other SEIV games/modules. It is something more than just a team concept, because it requires an even deeper coordination of the strategy you are pursuing if both players are to successful.

EARLY AND IGNORANT SUGGESTION:

I do have a question for Geo. My concept of Nomads are just that. No homeworld. A group of ragtag fugitives on a lonely desperate quest for something. You know, Battlestar Galactica. A large group of varied ships from cruisers to battleships, to freighters, to starlines, to transports in megafleets roaming from star system to star system. How about the concept of carving out an asteroid and adding engines? It only needs to move at a speed of 1 per turn to be mobile. And it allows for a new tech: "Colonize Asteroid".

How about ship components that perform research and intelligence? Also make solar panels a given tech for these races. That resupply need based on a single planet could be quite devastating early on. An enemy placed next to your home system could mean a very short game.

Just my 2 cents.

Suicide Junkie · #5 August 27th, 2001, 07:44 AM

quote:
How about the concept of carving out an asteroid and adding engines? It only needs to move at a speed of 1 per turn to be mobile.

That would be a BattleMoon

10,000 KT of space, and can use "core mount" weapons.
Note that 40 Ion engines cannot move a BattleMoon (you need at least C-Ts), and Propulsion experts get TWO movement on the map.

Just research ship construction & base Construction to MAX.

quote:
My concept of Nomads are just that. No homeworld. A group of ragtag fugitives on a lonely desperate quest for something. You know, Battlestar Galactica. A large group of varied ships from cruisers to battleships, to freighters, to starlines, to transports in megafleets roaming from star system to star system.

As nomads, you build whatever ships you want.
You don't need a homeworld, but a planet is required to communicate with others and to get research points.
As a bonus, if you have no planets and lose contact, you are immune to intel.

quote:
Also make solar panels a given tech for these races. That resupply need based on a single planet could be quite devastating early on.

I think I will give the nomads a +2 in solar panel tech (like the +2 in fighters).

If you need resupply on the frontier, build an empty-hull base. All bases have built-in Quantum reactors, so when you fleet any base with some ships, they all get maxed out supplies.
It does take longer than a resupply depot, but you don't need a planet.

Also, once you've got the tech, build a Massive Fighter with a quantum reactor. Zero maintenance, mobile, plus infinite fuel, but can't warp.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 27 August 2001).]

Baron Munchausen · #6 August 27th, 2001, 06:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
Historically though pirates have not really been a legitamate force. They have always preyed on weak enemies and run from fights against actual military forces.

The idea has a lot of merit as a role play race though. They can be a tool of a powerful empire against an another empire. One that you don't want to attack directly.

I think they would be great in a medium to large size game where you have strong empires facing off in a "cold war" type situation. One where you want to cause your enemy problems without actually openly fighting them.

The problem may be finding players to play a race where they really have no chance of winning, only of influencing the game and having fun role playing.

Geoschmo

Convergence! The "adapted" AI required to operate pirates would be almost identical to the AI needed to operate space monsters. Think about how both would behave... seeking out planets and making raids, hiding in convenient storms/asteroid fields (if this can be made possible in the hardcode -- right now it isn't). The only difference is that one would be 'ships' and the other 'monsters'. 'Space Monsters' and 'Pirates' could both be added to the game at minimal programming over-head. A two-for-one deal!

As a bonus, there could be another option besides "random" pirates operated by the game. There could be an intelligence operation that lets you create a pirate force targetted at a specific empire. It would probably have to be established in a specific system and only be able to affect that system and possibly adjacent systems. You would have to spend resources, pay a "maintenance cost" to keep them around once they were created. This way ALL layers could "play pirates" without giving up their ability to win the game.

This would be a great way around the problem of treaty restrictions and the unconditional identification of the source of any attack. In RL it is often possible to carry out a raid without giving away who launched it. But not in SE.

A definite disadvantage to the simple "sides" in the current game design. Being able to harrass someone whom you have 'allied' with just because they are too big to attack right now (or because you are in another war already) would be really handy.

Further intelligence operations to subvert a pirate group or just discover who created it might be good options.

Now, the question is should the pirate ships be directly controllable by the player who created the pirate force? Or should they be an AI 'client' that only obeys orders 'most of the time' like a real bunch of pirates? I prefer the latter. Pirates don't strike me as exemplars of military discipline.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 27 August 2001).]

Spoo · #7 August 27th, 2001, 08:36 PM

quote:
hiding in convenient storms/asteroid fields

Do asteroids hide your ships?

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Phoenix-D · #8 August 27th, 2001, 08:50 PM

By default, no, but I think they can be set to do so.

Phoenix-D

Baron Munchausen · #9 August 27th, 2001, 10:34 PM

No, it does not work for asteroids. For some reason, the powers that work for storms don't work the same for asteroids. Sight obscuration doesn't work at all.

This is really annoying because the absolutely classic, cannon SciFi way for a smaller force to escape from a superior force is to duck into an asteroid belt.

I'd like MM to change that so it can work, and to make it possible to put more than one ability on one object. What if I'd like ALL storms to have sight obscuration, and then some of them to also have other abilities? As far as I know that cannot be done right now.

Matryx · #10 August 27th, 2001, 11:15 PM

An option would be to create an asteroid belt looking storm, describe it as a storm with sight obscuration, and merely have it so it can't be remote mined.

I believe this would work